Occasionally I see these posts on these forums that are full of peace and love and flowers and hippydippy sunnyhoney, chakra abrakadabra, lets all hold hands, anti-science, non sense. It sounds nice but this is the real world. Look outside. Watch a nature show. It ain’t no picnic. There’s a lot of work to do to change this fkcd up world. Sitting around playing brother and sister will not get us anywhere.
Sure, I love poetry and even write it myself. Art is great. But I also think art should express the other side of that coin too. Art can be a great tool for communication to the masses. But it also has to communicate the TRUTH for that to take place (more on that later in this post…). The truth is often cold, hard and brutal. That’s the way it is. That is nature. That is life. Everlasting peace on earth is a utopian fantasy. It ain’t gonna happen. But fighting unnecessary cruelty, murder, injustice, inequality is not a utopian ideal. It’s the least we can do for our fellow habitants and planet to even slightly redeem ourselves.
I think it’s time to wake up and realize that this paradise that we occasionally (and too often!) speak of just doesn’t exist right now. Yeah sure, the kingdom of heaven is in us now, blablablaa. Lets just all hug and hold hands. Doesn’t work. Not anymore.
A fellow member recently wrote this in another thread on these forums: The parameters of science are in constant flux and disagreement… Belief in science as absolute is a perpetual roller coaster.
Science is not about belief. Or faith. Or ego. Or opinion. If anything, science & technology are the solution to provide & spread genuine understanding of our place on this planet. It is also a way to finding the means to live in a sustainable way and endure the survival of not just our species but others as well who don’t deserve to get wiped out because of our stupidity and cruelty. As the great Carl Sagan once said, science is a candle in the dark. Without it we would still be twiddling our thumbs in a cave hiding from the woolly mammoth. So don’t mock science, it’s not cool. The scientific method itself is not in flux. If you don’t understand it, go read some books. Here’s a few good ones:http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Dawkins/e/B000AQ3RBI/ref=sr_ntt_srch_…
The earth and it’s habitants are in tragedy. Humanity has become a horror show. The other planets in our galaxy are probably eating popcorn while they watch us consume ourselves to death. Sure there is great beauty in this world and even in the tragedy but then again, that’s easy to say when we don’t have a stun gun in our face or a metal rod up our ass, waiting to be the next happy meal for some pimple faced (due to milk) teenager.
If we accept the murderers, con-artists and cowards, eventually we will all get burned because climate, environment, etc is not divided by nations or ideology. When nature needs to detox, we are all screwed. We can think we are the next jesus, shakespeare, or robocop all we want, we are screwed nevertheless.
I really think it is dishonest and delusional to not acknowledge the dark side, the cruel side of life and especially the corruption of modern society when expressing ourselves through our art, poetry, music, literature, conversations, forum posts, etc. It’s disrespectful towards nature and an insult towards people who spend a lot of time trying to educate themselves to provide ammunition for the awareness-weapons of mass creation we all can possess.
Love doesn’t win this game. Education and awareness can.
To the sick, suffering, tortured and hungry, love don’t mean f*** all.
So it’s time to get our heads out of our assess and start speaking out.
I suggest EVERYBODY watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Replies to This Discussion
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Hi Markus, you are obviously of great intellect and I feel that you are in tune with spirit too.
We need both. It does not have to be either or. The feminine peace, love, hippydippy balances out the agro-masculine scientific energy. Actually it reads as very angry here.
But I am a fan of Zeitgeist. Peter is a very loving being. And the scientific info and solutions expanded my idea of reality and my mind
Science + Love will create the change we all wish to experience.
You cannot only live with one and dismiss the other.
Contributions from both are equally relevant. Humans need to be woken up on various levels. One way is certainly accomplished through love that seems “messiah” like. We need that here on earth to balance all the cruelty.
And if I wish to contribute the the side of hippy dippy love I can and you can bash me and ridicule me for it.
Why don’t many people speak that language which you referred to in another post? Is it fear of being misunderstood?
“Love doesn’t win this game.”
What is science without love? Is that what Hitler practiced?
here is a scientific video of Gregg Braden on the power of love to physically heal another human being
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMNlmn1DPc
Let’s work together. You have your way of accomplishing a mission for good in this life and you can accept that other’s have a different input towards the same mission.
Peace and Love my brother.
Let’s go get em! change the world with science and love for all
In balance
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markus,
you keep producing superlative threads and posts!
what i find most interesting is how you progressively synthesize your experiences on earlier threads.
you make some excellent points here about science, non-science, apathy and action.
i have repeatedly found that usually those who rail the against science, have a remarkably poor understanding about it and its intentions. they employ peculiar fallacies to justify their stance such as
1. accusing you of lacking intuition (which they insist they have in great abundance)
2. arguing that scientists have misled people in the past (therefore they must always do so)
3. insisting that science can’t see all (but somehow their faith does)
and of course the flowery words and verbal incense are thrown about with wild abandon.
it’s fine to talk about peace and love and even non-violence.
it is not fine to use the above noble ideas as a curtain to hide behind.
it is not fine to use the above to justify apathy.
it is not fine to use the above to justify inaction.
it is not fine to use the above to justify cowardice.
and it is especially indecent to use the above noble ideas to attack those who are working to improve the lot of life that victims of oppression endure … just so one can feel good about one’s lack of involvement and complacency. (these are known as the saboteurs as explained in feeling bad for doing good).
keep up your good work, markus – and wake them up!!
in friendship,
prad
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woooah, why didn’t you throw me the link to that thread before?? hahaha
well, now I got it
(even when I was asking you about concrete plans and stuff in the ar movement… hmmm… maybe you felt I wasn’t ready? lol…)
but thnx anywaysPS. your post is a fountain of wisdom once again my friend.
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why didn’t you throw me the link to that thread before??
i provided you with the original post from that thread and you emailed back saying you were going to “master them all”!
not only do i think you have been ready for a long time, it seems you are ‘mastering them all’, without even having read that strategies section … so well done again!!
here is that thread of which that item is one post:
30badigo HQ – discuss strategy here!
the specific sections have been included in the table of contents and some of the discussions and contributions (especially by kel) are very strong.
it is always refreshing to find someone who is as diligent, determined and committed as yourself who follows through so well on the task at hand! you said you would initially – and you most certainly have done so, markus!!
in friendship,
prad
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I don’t see anything wrong with being an idealist, at least then we know what we’re striving towards. Realism is too often an excuse for injustice and exploitation. How often do you hear some rich businessman saying ‘we live in the real world, we can’t do anything about this…yadda yadda’. When everyone knows they’re just making excuses to line their own pockets whilst exploiting others. I totally agree that people should speak out about BS and not keep their head in the clouds though.
Science doesn’t have a monopoly on ‘the truth’, it’s a tool that can be used for good or bad. We all know that too frequently it’s the latter. Don’t get me wrong, i’m a scientist so i’m hardly anti-science but there’s much more to life in my opinion. I happen to think that love is the only way to ease the suffering in the world, surely that’s the basis of being a vegan?
I agree with so much of what you say though. Like Mish I think love + education is what’s needed. I really do feel a change of consciousness in many people, like humanity is reaching a turning point. Let’s make our voices heard
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greetings alex!
you write:
I don’t see anything wrong with being an idealist, at least then we know what we’re striving towards. Realism is too often an excuse for injustice and exploitation.
this is finely expressed, imho!
in fact, idealism provides more than a mere ‘striving towards’.
as the saying goes:
“there is nothing so practical as idealism.”
in friendship,
prad
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Well science is just theory and people’s ideas becoming supplanted as facts!. – Science has so many things wrong with it, or do you beleive in the science that milk is good for you??
100 years ago they drank radioactive water because science said it was good for you..
newtonian laws are being replaced by ( quantum physics – the best way to describe free will imo.)
science has been contradicted by science for since science has started – and they contradict eathother today – no wonder they say fixed ideas are bad the scientists are in constant flux.
besides which, in line of medicine, they haunt the othomolecular doctors, and hide/banish evidence that will support a natural cure – for anything…
science made toxic drugs available!
nick
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nickeyp,
just because scientists say something, doesn’t make it science.
this is a mistake that people often make.
additionally, science isn’t always being replaced as you suggest. newtonian laws haven’t been replaced at all – in fact, they are alive and well and will continue to be used within their particular sphere of influence known as classical mechanics for instance. what quantum mechanics and relativity do is provide a more accurate refinement to newtonian mechanics: newton just didn’t have the facility to explore the very small or the very large 300 years ago.
so science is always being refined or as thomas henry huxley put it:
“it is the fate of all good science to be replaced by its progeny.”
in friendship,
prad
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So what makes science science?
confused now
nick
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it’s a good question nick.
science seems to be an honest investigation, comprehension and dissemination of reality as it can be discerned by the perceptive mechanisms available to us. it is beyond ego, wishful thinking, greed or personal gain. in that sense, it is no different from practising yoga or engaging in meditation properly.
for instance, the great debate between bohr and einstein regarding quantum mechanics was (imho) an example of two people trying to explore the universe with the tools available (thought experiments in this situation). they were creative, imaginative, intuitive and even synergistic because it wasn’t about personal egos even though they had very strong beliefs (einstein for instance had issues with quantum mechanics because of his deterministic perspectives and his belief that god “didn’t play dice with the universe”).
the steady-state vs expanding universe conflict was somewhat similar with each side presenting arguments which were successively pruned as technology provided a better and better picture of what is actually happening out there.
in many situations, less noble exchanges take place. despite ray greek’s repeated demonstrations of the inadequacy of the animal model in medicine, he is is opposed by ‘scientists’ who insist that vivisection is the way to do research because:
1. that’s what they know and they don’t want to change
2. they get paid big bucks for doing in vivo research
3. there is a legal precedent upheld by outdated laws which says that if you show through animal research your drug/herb/supplement is safe, then you can’t be sued when something goes wrong
this has nothing to do with science and everything to do with self-serving interests.
there are many shades and mixes in between, so things can get confusing, but what i think is important is not to conclude that science is bad and inadequate (or even the opposite) without examining the actual science being done, the motivation and the integrity. there is good science and then there is stuff which isn’t, but masquerades as such.
hope that provides a suitable answer to a very good question that actually has volumes written about it!
in friendship,
prad
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and once again, these two replies are mixed with a bunch of solid, feet on the ground feedback but then clouded with a bunch of wuuwuu jellybelly gobbledigook.
It’s funny that the 2 people who sparked me to start this thread are the first to respond to it =)
I got a little angry and annoyed from your posts on that thread and yes, I needed to express it.
And it seems my point was unclear in my above post. I’ll try again.Look, I appreciate your thoughtful replies and I don’t mean we don’t need love or spirituality. On the contrary. I just think that we should be careful when mixing them in our scientific discussions.
Love, spirituality, god, etc are very ambiguous terms. Subjective language. They can easily make a poignant discussion muddy, weak, far out. e.g. I think it would be very counter productive if someone writes a thorough post on the science behind animal products and then I was to reply to him with a poem about peace and love saying science can never be enough. We’ve tried that in the past, it doesn’t work. Or to be more clear, it is NOT enough.Good messages have lived on and will live on. Messages of love and peace, yes. But now it is 2011 and to many people those words don’t mean anything anymore. And I think that is okay because love and peace are more than words. I often think that they are actually demeaned by words. The words themselves have almost become the junk food of thought. They’ve been disgraced. Instead of talking about it, we can practice science with love. We can communicate our ideas lovingly.And what greater spirituality is there than our connection with nature? Hence, science. But again, these are my viewpoints. That is not science. That is the opinion of one man. Scientific inquiry doesn’t deal with opinions but facts. Until we know more about love, spirituality, etc … they should be left out of the discussion.
There’s a time and place for talks on spirituality.
What happens when we start mixing our ideas of love & religion in our scientific discourse?
well look outside.
A war of ideas prevails. Ideas about who’s god is THE god, about who is the greatest nation, about these opinions of politicians and lawyers and bankers often based on money, greed and power. Yet, all of them convince the people they are doing it out of LOVE. Sure, even terrorists love their families. But who are terrorists? The whole system of politics, law and free market is one big terrorist attack on life itself. Everybody is a terrorist. To someone… but sure, even the evil men love their kids. This kind of love get us nowhere right now. Yes, they are probably lacking genuine love and connection but saying these things out loud isn’t gonna stop the next pig from being turned into bacon nor a kid born into hunger without even a chance at walking around and living life with equal opportunities as those born in the mansions with the world in their hands.Science communicates ideas that we all can understand.
It is a universal language devoid of race, sex or income.Here’s a great debate to watch where these ideas are discussed further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-8-Yxdphsg -
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the post above refers to the first two replies in this thread…
I updated this post quite a bit and apparently during this time, many responses came so I suggest those who read it before, read it again…I felt yet again that some things had to be clarified for my point to come across. darn ning forum system, so confusing sometimes.-
Markus wrote, “Scientific inquiry doesn’t deal with opinions but facts. Until we know more about love, spirituality, etc … they should be left out of the discussion.”
I am not sorry about being born and feel no guilt. We are all innocent. Should we place on ourselves a boring limitation to having some fun? Here is my limit to having fun: I can do it as long as it’s not hurting anyone. How much more do we have to know?
But don’t you think about how science is written up in the anals of evolution. It is perpetuated by fear, not with opinions of fact. Grants are given for the studies that capture the imaginations of the people with the money, who then tend to distribute it how they see fit. It’s all tainted science concepts here. The survival of the fittest is the first. Money has no moral basis.
Individuals who revere money go against life. I doubt that books Dawkin’s writes about science will show us a different way to enter a new paradigm. But that’s how much I don’t care for the stuff being written by the meat eating society. At least John Lennon was a vegetarian and heading in the right direction, and so what if dreams are all we have then.
I mean, to get the change you are implying, I think, means you’ll have to lead us to the promised land of new science and art. What is it then? Didn’t you realize the dream inside the dream? Sibelius compositions are a far cry from the ROCK “N’ Roll I like. I’ve woken up then and am trying to wake you up. Huh?
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On that note, you mind find the Gifford Lectures interesting…
For over a hundred years the Gifford Lecture series has been one of the foremost lecture series dealing with religion, science and philosophy. … lecturers are to discuss natural theology as a science, that is, “without reference to or reliance upon any supposed special exceptional or so-called miraculous revelation.”
Among the lecturers are Niels Bohr, Etienne Gilson, Werner Heisenberg, William James, Noam Chomsky, Terry Eagleton, and my favorite Micheal Gazzaniga
I found these lectures while I was researching the neurobiology of belief, free-won’t (a.k.a. “free-will” or “will power”), spirituality, perception/awareness, and executive function. I don’t believe in God but I find religion very fascinating.
What is reality? that’s what I want to know.
There is a specific module in your brain which is making you feel like you are alive, if that module becomes lesioned, you will no longer be aware that you are alive. I read a case study once about a guy who had a had a traumatic brain injury in this area and spent the majority of the rest of his life thinking he was dead.
Feeling alive is in and of itself a mental construct resulting from a specific determined mechanism in our brains. In fact just about everything we think we know is a mere mental construct.
Science is nothing but agreed upon reality. Indeed it’s better than “wuuwuu jellybelly gobbledigook,” but it is impossible to know what true reality is with our current brain configuration. This is what we need to awaken too.
Perhaps, one day our brains will have evolved enough to know true reality, I wouldn’t doubt it. Currently, our brains are primarily determined mechanisms, we only have a small window of milliseconds to either allow or not allow our instinctual reactions to be carried out when faced with either internal or external stimulus.
I agree with you that “Love doesn’t win this game. Education and awareness can.” However, it would seem to me that love is the motivating factor that drives people to want start speaking out. Personally, I don’t think that posting inspirational messages on a LFRV forum is really doing a whole hell of a lot either.
I often wonder… as I eat my high priced organic fruit, enjoying the warmth and comfort of my home, enjoying the security and love I get from my family, enjoying the peaceful mind I get from having the opportunity to be peaceful, and the peace of mind I get from gaining knowledge and learning about science; my goal is to spread awareness via knowledge… but I wonder is this the best thing I can do relieve suffering? There are people starving to death as we sit around and talk about getting in enough calories and water, and talk science, and philosophy, and perfect health.
I wonder… should we be giving up our perfect health, give away the money (whether it be earned or given to us) that we are spending on our lifestyles, at least until all the animals on the Earth have the basic necessities of life, and then focus on educating?
Peace,
Guava
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Harumph, I can’t edit my post.
I should clarify that I don’t entirely agree that love is not involved with “winning the game.” I kind of contradicted myself in that sentence. It’s involvement is indirect, was my point.
Also, I don’t mean to imply that discussing these matters on internet forums is not productive, I meant that it just might not be the most productive thing we can do.
Also, after reading your post I thought I might find your facebook page interesting, but the link on your profile page doesn’t work? I am interested to know how you are spreading education and awareness, and speaking out. Guess I’ll have to wait for your website to be complete.
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It would seem to me that the first thing we need to educate people (and ourselves) about is how their Brain/mind works and it’s origins.
These two websites are awesome
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thank you for the links. I have been looking for neurobiology websites and found little informaiton on them tiil now! How fascinating it is!. anyway, i believe that the brain is just a receptacle for our spirit and when we die we continue on living without the physical..
then we get reinca’rnated!. Anyway, i don’t wish to debate this, it’s just my belief and others as well… It is difficult to see how ‘chemicals’ can percieve or feel emotions rather than just enabling them to happen…
had a visitation from my wife last night :o)) she wanted to give me a few things, and say that she’s still hurt! – and I was aware that i wasn’t breathing during the time this happened – i like seeing my wife in my dreams, and desperately want to go be with her! – there’s nothing left for me on this planet, so i want to go… but have to wait!
nick/nickeyp
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Glad you found the websites interesting 🙂
Here’s one more, and it’s interactive too 😀 Genes to Cognition
Wow, you must have some lucid dreams if you were aware that you were not breathing in the dream.
Your thoughts are the most real thing you are capable of knowing, so if your wife is in your thoughts [dreams] than she is as real to you now as she ever was. Especially if your dreams are lucid; that’s awesome!
Life on this planet is pretty cool though; if nothing else, at least it’s interesting to explore! More so than Mars I would think, heehee 🙂 Why would you want to leave early? You may never get to experience life in the human form ever again, you might as well enjoy and explore. Soon enough your energy will change and you’ll be able to explore the universe from a different perspective. Glad that you decided to stick around here for now though 🙂
I have this weird feeling sometimes that life is the dream and death is the awakening.
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Great posts GuavaGirl, lots of interesting stuff and also contributing links which I always enjoy. I will go through your links more this week. about my FB page, yeah seems there is a typo there on my profile!! aaa… I wondered why people were asking me to add THEM, haha.
so here it is:
www.facebook.com/markusrafaelnylund
Although I haven’t been active there, I intend to start hitting all my contacts with some provocative posts that will at least cause them to think. I am still very new to the activism aspects as I was never confident in myself to speak out on this stuff but I am now. And even writing it about on these forums is important because people are watching us. Remember, this is a public forum. I know for a fact that even as I write this, many friends and family members are reading this right now whether they will admit it or not. Sometimes they do and that means they want to know more. -
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Awesome. Well, I for one am looking forward to your provocative posts on FB!
I think you will have a greater effect there since there are more people who frequent it.
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hey you two!
there is a 30bad fb presence, but i think it needs to be made better known.
take a look at this thread:
facebook – comments and replies.
also i know freelee is doing the rounds there quite a bit too.
so hook-up and play together!
in friendship,
prad
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yeah dr and freelee are spending a lot of time there which is great because there are a lot of people on FB. facebook is the number 1 channel imho to spread mass awareness of critical issues. i took jan off from facebook but now i am back and ready to roll up my sleeves and get to work and help my fellow fruit warriors spread our message.
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Thanks Pradtf… I shall!
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Prad here is my latest blog post inspired by you….
http://sweetjuicyfreelee.com/2011/01/28/my-favourite-controversial-…
Here is an example of what I talk about on facebook…;)
❥ Pus: A thick yellowish or greenish opaque liquid produced in infected tissue, consisting of dead white blood cells & bacteria with tissue debris & serum…The FDA allows 750 million pus cells in every liter of milk (about two pounds). It takes 10lbs of milk to make 1lb of cheese, a pound of cheese can contain up to 7.5 BILLION pus cells. A single slice of American/Swiss can contain over 468 million pus cells! WT? (102 comments)
I’m now up to over 4900 friends, I’m really reaching 10’s of 1000’s though including their friends. Great way to get the word out!
I wish you would join Prad we would have so much fun!
Great having you there Markus!
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freelee,
i could ask for no greater kindness than to be included at the beginning of what is one of the most outstanding collections of topics i have seen on the net. you cover so many important matters and make these so clearly available.
even though i can’t read your exchanges (because i intentionally stay away from fb, my apologies), i know what they would be like, for we have watched you over the past two years, ever since the first post on april 29, 2009 when we met.
that individual though uncertain of her abilities possessed a fiery determination, an unshakable resolve to improve herself, as well as the compassionate judgment that is akin to wisdom.
you became our galadriel, freelee and with your celeborn beside, you shake the gates of mordor causing them to tremble and break.
the very light of the silmarilli themselves reflects from your eyes casting the sparkling radiance throughout the earth.
in friendship,
prad
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Prad thank you so much 🙂 Coming from someone who is a constant source of inspiration, your words means a great deal to me.
I am so fortunate to have such a wise teacher who is always there to coach me when needed!
I am also very honored to be compared to Galadriel, this comparison inspires me to keep spreading the word even more passionately.
One day the animals will be free, people will free themselves of preventable dis-ease and once again the planet will be free to express her true beauty.
Lovefree X
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I wonder… should we be giving up our perfect health, give away the money (whether it be earned or given to us) that we are spending on our lifestyles, at least until all the animals on the Earth have the basic necessities of life, and then focus on educating?
gg the above (and its clarification below) constitute a very interesting post.
what you wonder about above is something many have also contemplated. peter singer for instance gives away 20% of his salary to the needy.
i don’t think you necessarily need to give up anything in order to help others get something (this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t contribute to worthwhile causes in various ways, btw). nor do i think that there has to be a sequence to the progress. imho, it is important for activists to be healthy because they last longer that way (some i deal with don’t seem to understand that – their bitterness towards the status quo, gets devastatingly re-applied to themselves).
i always encourage activists to better themselves, so they can do better. i don’t mean the sort of narcissism you sometimes see on health forums, btw which is the all-about-me type of stuff.
see this as a sport where you are on a team and the bad guys (it’s my post so i’ll call them what i want! 😀 ) are on another. if you want to win the game, you need to train hard and take care of yourself. you don’t need to go around giving everyone your food, your water or peptalks till 3am in the morning when you should be getting your sleep. your efforts will do more as an example for them to follow, than your ‘sacrifices’, because by being better, you can compete better and bring along others to do the same. a stronger team means better performance.
this idea is not narcissistic nor selfish.
by working to be your best, you are following the rhythm of the strongest force in the universe – evolution. its morality is unquestionable, its persistence unshakable. it provides the only path, there is no other, and it is up to us to choose how to walk upon it.
in friendship,
prad
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see this as a sport where you are on a team and the bad guys (it’s my post so i’ll call them what i want! 😀 ) are on another.
I like this analogy 🙂 That’s a good way to think about it.
Thanks for the insight Prad, much appreciated.
Peace,
Guava
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Is it too late to put together a Super Bowl ad??? Or are we too “controversial” to get past the censors? 😉
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what am i doing? am i walking the walk?
expressing my thoughts on a public forum with my real name (which can be found along with my own website on my public 30bad profile) and photo qualifies quite well in my opinion for walking my talk.
there are people reading you know… people I know and people who now know me.
maybe you should read the last paragraph of my original post again.
this at least clarifies my point on this matter.i would like to know you and everybody here.
i am also willing to allow the world to know me and everything about me.
it took me a long time to get over myself and realize that the several online communities (this one, facebook, youtube, etc) and the internet generally is the greatest tool we have right now to bring mass awareness and also to allow people to experience what it means to be global in every sense of the word.Different ppl fight in different ways.
maybe we could fight together?
I believe that was the intention of my thread and it’s title. -
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that´s true internet is really the best tool to bring awareness to people
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I’ve gotten about half way through that movie, which was compelling if a wee bit simplistic at times.
But asking Science for a Goal is liking asking a hammer what it wants to build today. Science, in our time, for the large part investigates what it gets paid to investigate. Which means it’s on the payroll of bigpharma, and the medical establishment. Even Wall Street is primarily staffed now by our best and brightest in physics and mathematics. So science is being used to perpetuate the problem (thru credit default swaps, collateral debt obligations, derivatives — all created by mathematicians and physicists!) This just goes to show you that Science is not capable of creating a value structure. Science is simply a tool. Until we realize that we will be at the mercy of those who “tell” us what science means.
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all created by mathematicians and physicists!
hey!! don’t pick on the mathematicians and physicists!!
… well, you can pick on the mathematicians a bit (and those chemists too while you are at it!)
several very accurate exposes in your post too! much of science is indeed unscrupulously usurped for business purposes.
This just goes to show you that Science is not capable of creating a value structure.
this is a good point forrest! (though not necessarily quite correct … it is more along the lines of science as is often practiced does not create a value structure).
much depends upon those practising the science though. if your scientist has values, there is a good chance that the science too will have values. the great scientists throughout history seemed to incubate this idea.
in friendship,
prad
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Science is not capable of creating a value structure Could this statement be elaborated upon?
Are you saying we cannot use science to determine morality?Until we realize that we will be at the mercy of those who “tell” us what science means.
Those being who exactly? Are you referring to the scientific method itself? -
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Science cannot indeed determine morality by itself — you need to have values before using science.
As Pradtf points out, science is only moral if those pursuing it are moral. Just as a hammer is useful if wielded by someone moral and not if wielded by a psychopath.
As to those who tell us what science means, you mentioned one in your post, the theological dabbler — Dawkins. The scientific method is fine — but what “morality” do you extract from it? It doesn’t seem very robust to me.
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the scentific method is fine…
???? so it’s ok to vivisect animals, put their screaming selves into small cylindrical containers and steam them with cigarette smoke?
we had that one done on humans – and it was called auschwitz! – although the cylinders were a lot larger in fact they were shared rooms – just before I get corrected again :op
the scientiic method is fine?
so do you think it’s ok to expose rats to msg and when they’ve died change the rats and instead of telling the truth – lie and say the excitotoxins didn’t do any damage?
science has to be done with morality – although we could always say there’s no such thing as good and evil, and allow someone to come and rob you just as a scientific experiment to see if you’d feel pain…. etc….
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the scientific method is not about vivisection. It’s an epistemological methodology.
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ahem….
”established animal experimentation as part of the standard scientific method”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_testing
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You can use the scientific method without killing or hurting an animal, viz. the entire fields of Mathematics, Physics, etc.
Just bc Bernard joined the two doesn’t make it necessary and inevitable. But if they’re the same thing to you, then I guess you’re ethically against any form of science. Seems extreme and unnecessary.
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nick writes:
science has to be done with morality
and this is forrest’s point too.
the scientific method is only a method – it makes no claims to morality beyond it’s own structural integrity. in that sense, it is somewhat like mathematics, enclosed within it’s own universe where it must follow certain rules to stay honest (but only within its own frame of reference).
you make some powerful statements, nick – the kind those going into science need to hear.
the examples you provide are indeed not moral because they violate the rights of sentient beings. nor can they be argued through the ‘greater good’ attempt (though some utilitarian philosophers occasionally try to).
science and morality must go hand in hand.
is it not interesting that they are inseparably joined though the word:
conscience
in friendship,
prad
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Very well said.
Also, the animal experiments that bigpharma pays for, are the dark side of science. If science was to find love instead of greed as its main purpose, then we’d look at the east and copy them – monks for isntance,if I’m right? – copied nature to develop the martial arts.
There are many alternatives to using animals for scientific experiments, and the tools are useful. It is with love that we would be able to stop animal cruelty and start becoming a part of nature again.
anyway, this and the thread that shows that inferior plants are the one’s that are being mass produced, plus the lack of vitamins being supplied – will in time produce much illness, even for us, unless we’re lucky enough to find organic still in production – unlikely when we consider that the wind is going to make only the gmo’s produce…
anyway, I will try and stay positive, but i doubt that there’s much reason to!
nick
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Markus,
I really think it is dishonest and delusional to not acknowledge the dark side, the cruel side of life and especially the corruption of modern society when expressing ourselves through our art, poetry, music, literature, conversations, forum posts, etc. It’s disrespectful towards nature and an insult towards people who spend a lot of time trying to educate themselves to provide ammunition for the awareness-weapons of mass creation we all can possess.
Love doesn’t win this game. Education and awareness can.
I really loved this post. Sometimes when socializing, or helping a friend deal with problems, I like to look for the cause of the problem and try to fix it, and sometimes this involves looking at and discussing negativity.
Many people do not like this mentality and tell me to stop being so negative and pessimistic, and “lets just stay positive.” I do not like to label myself as optimistic or pessimistic, but a Realist.
If your abuse your spouse, your spouse will probably leave you soon. You cannot just sit and say lets stay positive and they might/will come back. You have to acknowledge your abuse, fix your abuse, and if and when your spouse comes back, do not abuse that person again.
The same goes for mother earth and her children. We have abused them over and over, and a time of repercussions will come. We cannot keep burying our heads in the sand and say lets just stay positive, and lets not talk about anything negative, and hopefully everything will turn out ok.
In Peace, PK
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great points here pk!
nice to see you back posting again too!
I do not like to label myself as optimistic or pessimistic
those are really the same label.
tim galloway alluded to this in his excellent book the inner game of tennis (which is far more than tennis, btw). he noted that compliments are really criticisms in disguise.
looking at the world through rose colored glasses or dark shades accomplish the same thing … just prevent the light from getting to you.
in friendship,
prad
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compliments are really criticisms in disguise. interesting thought. I’m gonna run with it for awhile and dissect it.
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it is admittedly a bit incomplete as i presented the idea since one is not aware of the context in which galloway discusses it which was to have your friend come and tell you that you have a good backhand. galloway explains it nicely in terms of how this sort of thing puts the same pressure on a person as criticism does.
i think compliments or criticisms aren’t a problem when they are presented factually and substantiated (in which case they are really just observations).
or if one is going to make a personal statement, it is wise to do it appropriately:
for instance, consider going to jascha heifetz and saying
“you played well tonight”
vs
“your playing really moved me”
though you can take this a bit far too.
there is a funny story pinkas zuckerman tells about one of his early performances of the tchaikovsky violin concerto in which one of the audience was jascha. pinkas was understandably nervous, but played it well. afterwards, at the reception he went to jascha who was relaxing in a large armchair. pinkas knelt down and said something like:
“i am your greatest admirer! you are the most wonderful violinist of all time. you are just so fantastic in everyway!! …”
jascha just looked at young pinkas for a moment and then said, “you play too fast.”
in friendship,
prad
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Me too!
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Prdeful response,
scornful response
how much is the difference? – tao
I think that compliments are not criticisms but just manipulations..
nick
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Nick,
I think that compliments are not criticisms but just manipulations..
I like your statement also, but could you elaborate more on how they are manipulations which I am assuming are things that motivate people to act in a certain way.
In Peace, PK
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Prad,
he noted that compliments are really criticisms in disguise.
Although not in all cases, I think many times compliments are a reflection of the insecurities of the one who is complimenting. That person has seen something in the other person they like and wish for themselves, or that person has something they want.
Compliments are an optimistic way to hide ones jealousy.
In socializing, I have observed many times how people give each other the look over, one will compliment the other, and then by the following week there is malicious gossip, slander and fighting on the part of the two.
The complimentor sees something he or she likes in the complimentee and feels jealous. Then they will comment on that thing. Then they will try to find faults and weaknesses in that person and spend a considerable amount of time and resources in defaming that person.
I do not like to label myself as optimistic or pessimistic
those are really the same label.
If you do not mind, please elaborate a little more on this point regarding pessimism. I understand how optimism can be a form of denial and looking at the world through rose colored glasses.
However, pessimistic people at times can play a role in identifying problems that need addressing.
In Peace, PK
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pk,
your points are well-taken and the illustrations make sense.
i provided a bit more background on galloway’s statement here:
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:905039
the idea is when you have observation, there is no need for compliments or criticisms. both of the latter two bring an element of judgment (not that judgment is a bad thing, as you well know from our other discussions), hence they aren’t even two sides of the same coin – they are the coin. observation on the other hand, carries no such price tag … it comes free (no coins to coin a phrase :D).
the zen in fact say that purpose of life is to see (observe).
let’s consider your example:
pessimistic people at times can play a role in identifying problems that need addressing.
optimistic people can do the same thing.
let’s look at this:
the pessimist says, i think the world is a mess.
the optimist says, i think the world is beautiful.
neither statement has much value because both are incomplete statements of existence (they are the same coin).
yet each can serve equally well when the second part is supplied (slight elaboration in brackets):
i think the world is a mess and i’m going to do something to change it (by going after the problem areas)!
i think the world is beautiful and i’m going to work to make it even better (by improving parts that aren’t up to standard)!
it’s all the same stuff, but what is interesting is that despite the incomplete statements, the actions can always be directed in a productive fashion (note i said productive and not positive because that term is too closely connected to optimism).
what this suggests is that there is an underlying force at work which goes beyond optimism and pessimism. no it is not realism exactly, but very close. it is idealism in its true sense.
it is what i alluded to here:
i think people view 30bad the way they do because of a yearning deep within from the best in us, to be the best we can be as individuals and as a species.
this yearning for the best goes way beyond illusionary concepts like optimism and pessimism. it is interestingly connected deeply with realism as per the idea of
“there is nothing so practical as idealism”
it drives the unstoppable force of evolution which through inexhaustible persistence formed and keeps shaping our universe.
in friendship,
prad
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I do not like Zeitgeist, and the reason can be understood by reading a topic in 30BaD forum where I and other people posted http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/world-of-trickery-and-lies. I have not read this thread, because it is definitely too “intellectual” for me. I just want to say that love is facts, and nothing more, if it is words it is not love. That love is loving the person we have next to us.
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I think you should really give the new film a chance. Actually, if you watch the whole thing, I really think you might like it. The older films in the series are much different. I also recommend you pick up some popular science books like “The Greatest Show on Earth” or “The Demon Haunted World” from your library because it really sounds like you need to educate yourself. Please have an open mind and give them a chance. You will thank me for it later. I also would prefer to keep the discussions on love elsewhere. As I said previously in this thread, that does not mean we should not communicate with each other lovingly.
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Thanks a lot, Markus, but I have read a lot about Dawkins, and I do not like his ideas very much, even if I haven’t read his books. Anyway I attended a kind of high school which in my country is called “Liceo scientifico”, and it was very hard, if you wanted to study, and we have were taught a lot about the scientific method.
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I would agree that Dawkins is a bit simplistic, his field of vision gets kind of narrowed down because of his anti-Christian stance.
I don’t have a problem with evolution, in fact I enjoy studying and discussing it a lot, but simply because we evolved from apes doesn’t mean there isn’t anything beyond a few rocks and stardust.
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thanks for starting this thread markus. at the very least this is an opportunity for me to clarify my position on a number of issues.
the scientific method simply involves the observation of phenomena and the generation/testing of explanatory hypotheses to attempt to account for the phenomena in question. this always involves findings/results being verified by a community of experts (peer review is part of this process).
the purpose of science is to attempt to describe the workings of the objective world of extension, usually in practice for favorably manipulating the laws of nature. I think this process is inherently neutral, and depending on how it is performed, and how the results of it are used, can be for great good or ill.
I don’t think that science can give us full answers for moral, aesthetic, psychological, philosophical or spiritual questions, but I think it can often be extremely valuable for informing decision making in these interrelated but distinct domains. some treat science as a source of ultimate truth or as surrogate for fundamentalist religion, I do not see it this way at all, it’s a tool for understanding the way the world works, and nothing more.
science is designed to be open-ended, the truths disclosed are never regarded as final. this is why we say the ‘theory’ of gravity, general relativity, the big bang, expanding universe etc., rather than the ‘laws’ in the immutable sense. paradigm shifts can and do occur that may shift our understanding of the world 180 degrees, these do not hapen every day however.
in garth’s post on the other thread, he was suggesting that since science is open ended and the results produced particularly in the field of health and nutrition are open to many different interpretations we can never be certain enough about anything to make intelligible statements, or that one person’s interpretation of the evidence is just as good as another. obviously I don’t agree with these claims at all. he was also suggesting that my belief in science is ‘absolute’, and of course it is not, as the numerous qualifications in my original post suggested and in this post attest to.
I think the buddha had it right when he said ignorance is the cause of suffering. this highlights the need for educating others, and this includes at times, when appropriate, engaging in respectful, honest, intelligent debates. being kind to others whenever possible I think is in our best interest, but most people are completely in the dark about the consequequences of animal agriculture and the use of non-human animals as property to our health and environment, in addition of course to the sentient beings being used themselves. for the good of everyone, once we have taken the time to educate ourselves on these important matters to the best of our ability, we should share this information, knowing that our knowledge is always going to be partial to some degree. I just think it would be profoundly wrong to do otherwise.
I don’t advocate calling other people names, nor do I believe that omnivores are inherently evil because of their eating habits. but good people are just as capable as anybody of doing bad things, and in the name of pursuing truth and justice, it’s our obligation to point when the actions of others may be unethical, incorrect, or unwise. never speaking up about these issues out of fear of being perceived unfarorably or as being unloving or unspiritual is essentially being an enabler of these acts, in spite of our best intentions.
I also do not beleive that debating with others means that we are attacking them, being unaccepting of them as human beings, or in general being unspiritual. we’re pitting good or better ideas against not-so-good ideas, this is the only way that knowledge progresses. in the case of people operating from ideas which are clearly harming them, challenging their beliefs may be the greatest for of kindness and compassion we can perform on their behalf, although of course there’s no easy answer to all of these sorts of situations.
I also believe that being a vegan, animal rights advocate and health educator does not mean one is necessarily trapping oneself in the prison of samsara, and blinding oneself to the immanent spiritual truth of our everyday awareness. the mind thinks in dualistic concepts, that’s just the way it works. you can’t qualify anything without there being an opposite, including being ‘one with everything’, ‘accepting’,etc. all these things have opposites. when we’re talking ‘absolute’ or ‘spiritual’ or ‘ultimate’ reality, it can only be described in negative terms, i.e. not this, not that. any qualification we put on it is inherently dualistic. we can’t say anything about it at all and hope to accurately represent it, including what I just said.
what I’m trying to say here is that there are no bumper sticker slogans that can hold the key to the mysteries of existence nor tell us what is the morally correct thing to do in any situation. life is far more complex than that. this is a place and time for being simply being present with others; there is a time to debate; there are even times to raise one’s voice, shout, or even use force. I regard simplistic and and facile answers to life’s myriad problems and challenges with suspicion in other words.
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Thanks for your thorough reply B, I have great respect and admiration for not just your understanding of nutrition but also how you see the big picture. Your posts are always fascinating and educating as well.
Regarding whether we can use science to determine our value system, neuroscientist Sam Harris discusses his new book “The Moral Landscape”
Sam Harris: Science Can Answer Moral Questions -
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I’m afraid you, B, are mixing science and technology. Pure science and technology are 2 distinct things. And anyway how many times scientific theories which sounded to be so “sound” have been controverted by newer ones?
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Hello Linda, thanks for your thoughts. The point you made has been referred to already in this thread so I suggest you read through the whole thing as there are other great points made as well regarding your reply. Mixing science & technology is not a relevant issue in this thread, if you want to talk about that, please start a new one.
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Yes, I know that it’s not the main issue here, anyway I’m afraid I do not understand at all what the man issue here, so I apologize and I am going to withdraw
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forget it- this was to be replied to b’s discussion but it wont’ allow me to reply so forget it I will just write it here.
The problem with compassionately debating or forcing to change views, is that the mental health team do this, and they’re so wrong in what they’re saying – only know about the medication to take, and even that should be as was short term not long term… tranq’s etcetera are supposed to be short term remedies, until the nurtirion and vitamins work….
so compasionate they maybe but misguided also… but have a tough time telling them that though, because they’re trained to feel right all the time….isn’t desire the cause of suffering? and ignorance creates desire? so ignorance and desire are both the cause of suffering? but ignorance comes first or is it desire?
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Can there not be enough room in our hearts, heads, spirits, and souls for science AND nature, truth AND love?
Your health is as good as its weakest link.
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Hi :o)
A lot of scientific discovery is made by those who want to make the world a better place, once they have discovered it, yes the cure for illlness included, the businesses that be actively try to demolish it if it has no profit value…
so many things are being held back by power-lust and greed…
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hey Doug and welcome to the thread. Thanks for your comment
I think science in it’s purest form is a celebration of all the awe, truth and magic to be found in our great natural world. As B said, science is a tool for understanding the way the world works. We are not the tools of science. But we are apart of nature.
Unfortunately we live in a society that is not governed by prioritizing the well being of everyone involved. And I feel, if we don’t start taking responsibility to truly acknowledge this to us and the people around us, eventually the only truth we face will be our demise. Money and profit rules. And ignorance is the greatest disease there is.
Doug, you are inspiration to us all and if anything, you have done your part and infinitely more than most ever will to make this world a better place. I also still firmly believe that prioritizing our own health & well being is the greatest contribution one can make. And you made me realize that more than anybody else.
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greetings rj! and welcome to 30bad!
you write:
Who are you going to change with this fight?
are you fighting to change markus? 😀
in friendship,
prad
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thank you rj!
you write:
But I would be interested to know what drives Markus to those words — a belief that it will change things or a frustration that it won’tmarkus can answer specifically for himself, since he has been immersed in the study of such matters for the past several days generating some of the best threads we’ve had on 30bad. hence, he has a rather good understanding of who he has become, at this point, i think.
however, i may be able to answer somethings in a more general way.
i’ll start with this:
the notion that we can’t change things (including people) is falseas a former scientist, you are no doubt aware of some quantum mechanics. a typical difficulty that is illustrated when dealing with the very small is that the mere act of observing causes alterations. for instance, you can’t ‘see’ an electron because trying to bounce a photon off one is like throwing a medicine ball at a marble (if you know what i mean). the action of the photon alters the position of the electron (and likely its temperament too :D) – ie change.
this sort of thing happens in the macro world as well, but we just don’t always notice it to the same extent partly because big things, including people, tend to have more inertia. 😀
however, it isn’t difficult to change people and there are many ways to do this. i should clarify though that ‘changing people’ really means to cause them to change themselves, because the process of change is something that can only be carried out by the individual (unless there is some form of physical action – eg effecting a localized alteration of epidermal coloration through a lipstick laden osculation … uck!).
what may be difficult though is to produce a particular ‘desired’ change, because this sort of thing usually involves many factors. causality is a tricky business.
for instance, from my post, you understood what you were doing right away:
Very good point.
And yes I am fighting a point of view — so am in contradiction of my post. Must think more carefully about my words.
the change my little effort produced in you is expressed in your last sentence.someone else with more fragile composure may have thrown a temper tantrum. i’ve certainly had the pleasure of watching these erupt when pointing out the self-referential contradiction of these things over the years. 😀
so the same stimulus can produce a different reaction depending upon the nature of the host. change is inevitable, though admittedly you may not always get quite what you’re after right away.
sometimes sweetness is effective.
sometimes harshness works.
sometimes logical reasoning does the trick.
sometimes humor makes it happen.
sometimes repetition hammers in the reality.
sometimes only bathing in the glistening tears of empathy can cause the cleansing.so we can indeed effect change in others by creating opportunities for them to see beyond their ‘beautiful world’ to one that isn’t so beautiful for someone else:
skinned alivehowever, what it always takes is what is required in any worthwhile endeavor
determination, dedication and diligence
the substance any good scientist is made of.
and it helps to pursue one’s goal without chaining oneself to it:
“by not wanting, there is calm and the world can straighten itself.”
lao tzui’ll stop here for now, but if you want me to address some of your other points:
There must be hate in order to know what Love is.
Love does win the game.
Fighting achieves nothing except hurting yourself.i am willing to do so.
perhaps, this is sufficient though.in friendship,
prad -
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thank you rj.
and i appreciate it being so well received.
i see nothing wrong with your perspective of seeing the ‘best in the world’ (not to be confused with ‘the world is at its best’ though).
as a teacher, it is part of the job to do this and encourage those under your guidance to also find the best no matter how deeply it may be hidden. i appreciate what you said to markus about feeling privileged to be the teacher of such wonderful beings – i too have felt the same way, though i didn’t have to travel overseas to find poverty, viciousness, hatred and fear … found my students struggling with it right nearby in the midst of western affluence. many showed admirable courage and fortitude despite their young years and, as you say, were an inspiration.
i personally agree with you that it is best not to get angry because you can probably act more effectiveness. however, what is important is to act. for instance, take a look at this:
this is poetry of action in motion!
and there are many ways we can act because we have recognized that something requires doing and we are going to do it! in fact, isn’t that why you teach overseas? isn’t that your action to change things and do your bit to make things better?
(btw, you really didn’t answer markus’ questions, but i think your answers may be contained in the ones i just asked.)
you ask:
Do you think we have connection beyond the physical body?
If you don’t, my argument of influence by expectation will fall flat
i think there is merit in your argument regardless of what i believe, rj.
it may be difficult to assess the influence of expectation.
as i said, causality is a tricky business. 😉
let me answer your ‘beyond physical body’ question though with the following hindu story:
a man and his wife having lived into their old age chose to leave behind their worldly possessions and follow the path of spirituality. they lived in the cleanliness of poverty filling their days with praying instead of preying.
as they had no home of their own, they walked the dirt roads with the same reverence as though these led to heaven itself.
one day during such a walk, the man who had moved several yards ahead of his wife saw a sparkling on the side of the road. as he moved closer to it, he realized that it was a beautiful jewel which had fallen from someone’s necklace possibly. afraid that his wife would be tempted to covet such a treasure, he casually walked to it and started trying to kick dirt over it, all the while looking back to make sure his wife didn’t see what he was doing.
well she did see the rather strange site of her husband churning up a bit of a dust bowl at the side of the road ahead of her.
so she called out: “husband, what is it you are doing?”
he replied: “nothing at all, my wife, i am doing nothing.”
she said: “but you are all covered with dirt from the road, why is that?”
he said between coughs: “well i walked into a soft part of the road and …”by now, she had caught up with him and he had run out of creative explanations.
“what are you doing?”, she demanded.
so he had to tell her: “wife, i saw this jewel on the road and feared that you might be tempted into forsaking the spiritual path we have chosen to walk together. so that you would not see it, i was trying to hide the jewel with the dirt.”
she looked him in the eye for a few moments with kindness.
then she smiled.then she asked gently: “my husband, how is it that you see a difference between the jewel and the dirt?”
in friendship,
prad
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So what motivates us? (my belief follows…)
Are you sure you are simply selfish? I have the feeling you are beyond that. Maybe it is a belief of yours that is due for review?! No one that lives teaching children in a land of turmoil is strictly selfish, no?
Eventually when we desire to tune in to living our full honest potential in the way of serving others, we do it from a place of love.
LOVE is the impetus for all good acts that create change and expansion.
That loves extends to all living beings, earth included….and those which our physical eyes see doing harm to others.
It is the insanity of negative thought that keeps contributing to harm being done.
Motivation that is spawned of negative feelings like anger and hate is contracting, closed….this includes fear, fear of the worst that can happen.
If we live in fear with the perception that humans are not innocent, we live in a state that is contracted and closed and our acts trigger more of that negativity in the world we see. This is a selfish motivation, fear/ego wishes to preserve itself by seeing other humans as separate and many as “bad”, pointing the finger and projecting our own guilt outwards. One finger pointing at someone else leaves three pointing back at me.
I am not saying to ignore the acts that are promoting more hate. The ones that make any living being feel powerless. I believe for myself that my motivation is more productive when I am perceiving human kind as innocent, inflicted with a disease of temporary insanity and sharing from motivation of Love will set us free. Condemnation of any other being is the wicked trap of our ego to imprison the other person but it also imprisons the one serving condemnation. It is my choice to ask How can I help this world in a way that keeps me in a high vibration of love? Not dragged down to the level of punishment.
Therefore, as in my first post here, I see as do you and Garth and Dr. Graham and many others, that any action we take must be founded in love. Love + Science for good. Be a scientist with love for all humanity, not to control others or nature. I believe that Markus is of that perspective too. We are all here at 30BaD for love of humanity and planet, and that is what is so ironic about the original post; as I read it it felt to me it’s motivation was to make me shut up and stop expressing myself the way I do. Wow.
And whatever action we are motivated to contribute, as long as it comes from love, is a benefit to evolution. Human evolution I believe, is taking a next step and that is towards compassion and unity worldwide, no borders eventually. May be 500, 000 people left on the planet and may take 4000 more years, but my faith is in that happening and we are working towards it now. Yes, conclusion of the era of wars.
We all have our divine assignments, we are not all science minds. Some are to be animal activists, some are to be teachers of children in lands consumed by poverty, some are to work to save the rainforest for all it’s benefits, and some are to be monks who chant for the salvation of humanity and as they do they send out physical electrical charges of the feeling of love. There are so many emotions of hate and fear being sent out into the ethos they MUST be countered/ neutralized.
This is my perception.
This motivation of this thread was directed at me plus one.
I have not changed my perception. I stand strong in it.
Sinatra said Ill do it my way. If my way stirs feellings of annoyance and anger in another, certainly not my intention. I am working on that negative stuff which happens inside my own mind. We all get it. But we can only do the work our Self first before we effectively influence another. Change over to motivation of Love for everything. I am open to being corrected in kindness.
Honestly I felt bullied and did not want to contribute here anymore. Bullied out.
Seeing your input inspired me RJ.
And yes, the original entry statement of this thread was revised, it was expressed in near rage at the first writing. My support of speaking words of love made another human enraged. That seems to me insanity.
You be you, I be me in that we can be free.
We all find our own way.
I bought land in Ecuador and am going to contribute to preserving 400 acres of land at edge of rainforest that would displace multiple families for gated retirement communities that are not in harmony with the local people or environment, starting a school for indigenous children to remember the shamanic tradition and local art & craft, and participation in the foundation of a fasting healing retreat. My motivation is to contribute service to at least one small part of the world in need, and the rest of the world in that the rainforest provides for humanity if we treat if with reverence. It is not being treated that way currently.
My prior employment was 5 yrs of caring for a woman with no family who had sever Alzheimers and a brain tumor. I got that position because I prayed that I could be of service to at least one person. I was a fashion designer at the time and I felt selfish doing that anymore.
I am doing just fine my way.
In the spirit of understanding each other and expansion,
mish
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mish,
i think you are correct in ‘admonishing’ rj regarding his selfishness. 😀
i don’t think there is anything selfish about this very decent fellow either!
on the other hand i don’t think you are so correct regarding the bullied bit. you may have felt bullied, but that is because there are certain things in your posts that are incompatible with markus’ approach. he is addressing these, just as you are addressing his ideas.
he is not critical of what you do. he is critical only of certain ideas, which are not exclusively yours anyway because many people say the same sort of stuff you do.
let me see if this idea from martin luther king will help resolve a conflict that really doesn’t need to be there and generally comes from a misapplication of that word ‘love’.
mlk spoke of agape the divine love (which is the only love, btw) and that we should love our enemy because god loves him/her too. but he also said that you don’t have to like your enemy, you don’t have to like being exploited, you don’t have to like being abused … and you should damn well do something about it for:
He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
kelin echoes the same idea when she talks about jesus here:
and so did this person when she wrote:
I don’t want to be that anymore, I am praying for the divine inspiration to somehow make animal rights activism my next career and until then volunteer.
Actively Promoting Compassion – anyone?
so i don’t think we need to feel that far apart.
if you want to do things your way for now that’s fine and markus will do things his way too … but please, please no sinatra here. show mercy! 😀
in friendship,
prad
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So what motivates us? It is always to feel better within ourselves.
there is likely more than just feeling good here, rj.
the story was in answer to your physical body question, but it can serve as a point from which to explore motivation if you want it to.
in friendship,
prad
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perhaps this may be of some use, rj:
by all means start a thread though. it will be a good exercise for people to explore the matter through their own posts as well as reading those of others.
in friendship,
prad
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I’ve never seen this bad world of which you speak.
what about the billions of animals suffering & dying every year for human consumption?
or the now over billion (and growing) children born into starvation and poverty?
what about the military conflicts in the middle east (and elsewhere) where innocent people and ignorant soldiers are dying and killing each other year after year?
what about the fact that over 1.5 trillion dollars are spent on military expenditures worldwide yearly? you think those weapons are used for… beauty?RJ, I hope you realize that many in this world pay a great price for that beautiful world which you live in. Who wins their game?
No, I can’t make people change. But we can show them what is going on. Are you saying that you wouldn’t change if it meant the well-being of everyone you know, including yourself? With all due respect, if the answer is no, I think you have come to the wrong place my friend.
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Many good ideas in the ripening.
Apart from some serious logistic challenges if 7 billion people were to seek land within 500 miles of the equator or so, you typically need something to obtain land etc. with. In most parts of the world, money. That money needs so far to be ‘pulled out’ of The System (TS, our current society) whereafter it can be pumped into a Real Economy (RE, a place where Land + Work = Wealth) by buying land and possibly some goods (building materials etc.). Not that I believe you can actually own land but hey, most people do and as long as people around ‘your’ bit of land play the game, you should be fine.
I’ve played with the idea of, apart from settling in the kind of environment you describe and being self-sufficient, continuing to pull money from TS into RE. I have easy means to do that from anywhere in the world as long as I have a computer and internet access. A highly skilled stockbroker could with little but intelligent action obtain loads of land. While I understand that money in TS is, essentially, vaporware, it can still (so far) be transformed into real things in RE such as land, food, building materials etc. I still feed myself and my family with that vaporware, keep us warm and so forth. It never ceases to amaze me how typing on a computer can bring mangoes from Ghana, dates from Israel, blood oranges from Sicily etc. on my table; as if it were magic! Now, I naturally know the price of the ‘magic’ and won’t be paying it forever (likely 2-5 years) but you get the idea.
It would sort of make sense to continue to pull money out of TS as long as TS stands in order to buy even more land, maybe some other stuff, maybe allowing other LFRV’s to settle on that land. Just not be dependent on TS.
I also think it would be a good idea to keep the internet running, regardless of TS; I would probably know 1 % of what I know today without the internet. Internet requires computers and they need a manufacturing chain to exist.
Just a few ideas. It’s a large topic.
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Have you ever ‘changed’ anyone? You can’t even change your child or your wife or your parent. The more you fight to change someone, the more they resist and all you get is more fight
if the above was true then the advertising agencies wouldn’t spend megamillions on advertising to doctors, magazines and media… aS it is covert hypnosis works and so does persuasion. – they change people and the paretns and teachers guide the children – I think you’ll find the same argument being made by protaoras the sophist in the bok- or was it meno?
znd counsellros and psychotherapsits wouldn’t have any work – although I’m not srue aout that one!!!
nick
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Thank you Markus!
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Sometimes people need reminders of the reality of things.
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Opinion+time+takes+read+this…
Take Care,
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what is good at least is that these things are coming out.
20 years ago the public wouldn’t even know.
many good comments there too.
in friendship,
prad
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Good story, Big G! 🙂
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Great reading Markus. Keep sharing. Do some youtube vids talking about this stuff too.
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A good read. Why do you suppose money/profit exist?
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Reply to guavagirl:
gg wrote:
**so if your wife is in your thoughts [dreams] than she is as real to you now as she ever was.**
do you allude that my wfie didn’t exist? It’s happened before on another site, but I can show you the obituary if you need proof.. >o(
nicl
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do you allude that my wfie didn’t exist
nick i don’t think that’s what gg was saying when she wrote:
Your thoughts are the most real thing you are capable of knowing, so if your wife is in your thoughts [dreams] than she is as real to you now as she ever was. Especially if your dreams are lucid; that’s awesome!
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:910944
i understood her statement to mean something like if you hold someone in your thoughts, they are every bit as real even if they don’t physically exist the way they did.
the rationale for this idea is that since our perception is through our minds, we can keep the reality alive through our thoughts.
but gg can explain her idea if it is different from how i put it.
in friendship,
prad
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Thanks Prad,
i am so used to people questioning my wife’s existence and took it that way… I will keep my obituary up in remembrance – still life isn’t worth living, and I want to be with her – I tried commiting suicide twice but neither time worked – so god is cruelly keeping me away from her!
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well nick if suicide didn’t work it likely means that you have other things to do here.
richard bach in his book illusions writes the following:
“Here is a test to find whether your mission on Earth is finished: If you’re alive, it isn’t.”
there are plenty of things needing to be done (like that idea i left on your page).
so that’s something to think over perhaps along with this story (since you mention god):
narad to nirvana
there is an ancient hindu story about narad who used to travel between heaven and earth to maintain ‘communications’ so to speak. on one such trip to heaven he happened to go past 2 yogis practising in an effort to prepare for nirvana. each asked narad to find out how long they would have to wait.
so narad checked out the situation for the yogis up in heaven and on his way back he dropped by to tell each their eta.
to the first, he said you have 2 more lifetimes.
the yogi was greatly pained:
“2 more lifetimes? 2 more lifetimes! it is so long, so tediously long. i’ve worked so hard for 20 lifetimes already and now i must endure 2 more.”
narad left the yogi in his despondence for he would not be consoled and headed over to the other one.“you have to wait 40 lifetimes before going to heaven”, he told that yogi. the yogi was elated!
“40 lifetimes! only 40 lifetimes before i see my lord! i will work all that much harder now that i know there is such little time. i will make myself worthy so my lord will be pleased with the best i can give with my next 40 lives!”
narad said to him, “just a second while i answer my cellphone for the lord is calling … hmmm, it seems that there has been a recent vacancy … and it … looks like you can leave for nirvana right now! congrats!”
(ok ok, i made the last part up, but it is sort of the way the story ended anyway)
good idea to stick around till the work is done, imho.
in friendship,
prad
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I don’t think I could of worded it better myself… Thanks Prad 🙂
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wife’s obituary….
we had separated with my coming to Uk for things from my parents – but all i received was more abuse from them!
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However i may have treated her in real life, and what I thought about her whilst she was alive, I still feel life isn’t worth living without her…. and what’s to enjoy in life? nothing! for everything is misery, everything suffers, and I don’t want to do anything anymore, because she was my guide my gaurdian angel and my sompcnaion. she taught me everythign I know about diet and much more as well -a nd for thi I treateedd her badly! I still don’t feel sorry for that, whatever that means to you, but I still think she’s my raison d’etre and she’s gone so there’s no point in living this hell anymore….
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great read. I would recommend Stewert Swerdlow as a source also for putting things straight. Its alot of “out there” but still take what you want from it. He does have alot of evidence and stuff. Also some easy mental tecniques that you can use to protect yourself a litle.
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Thank you for the name. :o) If only I thought that sz was so nice a name ;o)
anyway, I went to his website and haven’t found anything but hgh and things like that… what exactly am I searching for? would help me if I knew :o)
nick
Develop a positive mental attitude: For many people this is one of the hardest things they will ever do. It is true that people who view things positively have lower stress levels, are brighter and have negligible health troubles
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expansions.com its not about food and stuff. But like agendas and stuff. He has written a good book that is called Blue Blood, True bloods. Im reading it atm. You can also search for his name on youtube where he talks about mind control and all that stuff regarding goverment.
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greetings fruit life! and welcome to 30bad!
you write:
Science is written in the language of mathematics
this is not entirely correct since much science (even physics) can be explored qualitatively. in fact, certain situations are so complex that the math doesn’t even exist for ‘writing’ the science and often must be dealt with via numerical analyses of various sorts.
axioms are indeed beliefs, but what markus is getting at is somewhat different.
his statement is more along the lines that all beliefs are not created equal.
hence, there is a difference between believing that the moon is made out of swiss cheese (non-science) vs going to the moon and ‘believing’ that you have been unable to find any (science).
science is not about proof in the mathematical sense, but it is about gathering empirical evidence and developing cogency. as a result, models of existence can progressively improve, but they never really need to deteriorate into whimsical fantasy.
in friendship,
prad
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as a student of mathematics i find it hard to accept anything of logic which cannot be proven to me (hence why i do not study physics)
i see! that’s good to know, david!
i am a student of physics, so we should get along nicely regardless of what we consider to be a ‘proof’. 😀
the empirical method is based on the ‘good enough’ belief … which seems to be a good enough belief. 😀
so if you have explored a reasonable part of the moon (by various means) and found it not to be made of swiss cheese, then it is appropriate to extrapolate these findings to the rest of the moon.
not ruling out the possibility that there is swiss cheese somewhere on the moon is fine, but not acceptable in a scientific sense because we can by the same logic not rule out batter, fruit, onion peels and muppets.
so we tend to make our conclusions based on what we know rather than what we don’t know. if evidence shows something else later, then we alter our model, not on speculation, but on the actual findings (qualitative or otherwise).
what area of math are you studying, david?
in friendship,
prad
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As a physicist as well, I should say that theories are useless unless backed up by experimental observation. Science really is just a case of doing the best we can based on the observations we can make and quantifying it using the language of mathematics.
You may not like it but there’s no way to really prove the laws of physics are the way things always are, not in a logical sense anyway. Logic can only take you so far and always relies on assumptions that could be wrong. We assume that things work a certain way until observation shows otherwise. Theory has to be constructed to fit the universe, not bending the universe to fit your theory as some are prone to do.
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@david: thx! i’m acquiring a deeper appreciation of geometry and it’s significance recently.
alex wrote:
Theory has to be constructed to fit the universe, not bending the universe to fit your theory as some are prone to do.
now that is beauty, alex!
i think you’ll enjoy this quote by percy bridgeman:
“And in the end, when man has fully partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, there will be this difference between the first Eden and the last, that man will not become as a god, but remain forever humble”.
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:315433
in friendship,
prad
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Everyone is right everyone is wrong – you cant really compare your beliefs to another, everyone is different thats all – thank god… peace out dudes 🙂
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there are things that exist outside of science that cannot be proven, but only experienced
yes, the world is in a bad state, but what is the solution? what is the cause? these are very deep questions and the answer won’t be truly found without looking at, experiencing, “what is beyond”
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Mindfulness is the solution.
peace,
Guava
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Guava that is true if your mind isn’t full of chemicals.
http://www.cchr.org/videos/marketing-of-madness/introduction.html
Take Care,
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Has the thread defined the word SCIENCE scientifically?#1 current quantum science says that the “observer” co creates and effects the observed.this has been a factor in physics since 1916 or so and progressively more accepted since then.So called SCIENCE did not know anything millennia ago but the universe of mystery still existed.extracting a term “LOVE” (ill defined as it is in the current jargon of the world) from the equation is an archaic conceptIf you mean material reality and objective science there is no such thing and never will be. It is all subjective. The observer is the observed.You are most likely using “Science” as a term to define “the ability to have a theory provable?? and that others can repeat your results of testing or research. if it cannot be repeated then it is not considered science.Weak Weak definitionthe very assumption that any experience even my own is repeatable is based on a static concept of the Universe.Research and Dialog (discussion) is the only science worth discussingDavid Bohm was one of most respected of scientists to date and a protege’ of Einstein.He defined Dialog as the most important aspect.You dont know it all. so called science does not know it all.no group or religion or movement knows it allit is all a majestic mystery.. THAT is the state of scientific inquiry. Science is not a nounScience is a verb! and it is always ongoing investigation.that.
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AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. Stop being ‘spritual’ and start HELPING people.
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I agree with you – talkin’ ain’t doin’
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