Lets be honest folks…

This is a post from now discontinued 30 Bananas A Day online forum.

What did comedian George Carlin think about ‘saving the earth’ ?

I do think it’s admirable that there are people in this world who care so much about our fellow animals, our environment, etc. Even on this website, I applaud and have huge respect for guys like Pradf and dr for reminding us that there are animals suffering out there. I think people like you are a gift to the world. My occasional shame from being a human is eased by the goodness and compassion you exhibit.

I just have my doubts when we try to patch up these little problems individually with our charities and petitions. Sure, they can’t hurt but I think a ‘hygienic’ approach to the health of the whole planet would be a more powerful way to confront the root cause of all this disease and destruction.

I mean cmon, lets stop kidding ourselves with this save this and save that (although I am in no way against saving animals and our environment).
It’s humanity that we are out to save. There ain’t no shame in denying that.
It’s time to realize that we are also animals and WE also need to be saved.
For that we need to make drastic changes to our lifestyles.
Step 1. Stop consuming animal products.
Step 2. Stop supporting the profit oriented monetary system as much as possible which is really the root cause of all problems whether it’s war, hunger, disease, ignorance poverty or even abusing animals and thinking we are somehow better/above them.
Step 3. Gradually move towards a life of self-sustenance (to remove ourselves from the system), health/fitness and a transition towards a resource based economy.
Step 4. Educate yourself on global matters, science, health, etc.
Step 5. Take action: speak out and inform others, become the example/change you wish to see.

For more info, use Google.
Have a nice day.

COMMENTS

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 5:15am

how do I embedd the video on there? Tried the link and the code but didn’t work. hmmmm…

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 5:35am

you need to check the old style box on youtube.

then you’ll get code that ning understands.

you can edit your original post put by clicking on Options (top right corner) and selecting edit.

then you can put in the correct code.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by mish on January 24, 2011 at 10:28am

carlin had revolutionary thought mind and he sure was funny

Reply by Perry Fullerton on January 25, 2011 at 12:11am

For more info use Google 😉

I’d tell you but I actually have no idea!

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 5:39am

I mean cmon, lets stop kidding ourselves with this save this and save that

It’s humanity that we are out to save

the two are intricately related, markus.

by ‘saving’ the weak and defenseless is how humanity will save itself.

the general concept is expressed below:

“For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.”
Pythagoras, mathematician

“I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men.”
Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist

“While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?”
George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925

“In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they’re the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921

“As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields.”
Leo Tolstoy, author

“We cannot have peace among men whose hearts delight in killing any living creature. By every act that glorifies or even tolerates such moronic delight in killing we set back the progress of humanity.”
Rachel Carson, marine biologist

“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”
Thomas Edison, inventor

“Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.”
Albert Schweitzer, missionary and statesman, Nobel 1952

“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who deal likewise with their fellow men. Not to hurt our humble brethren is our first duty to them, but to stop there is not enough. We have a higher mission – to be of service to them wherever they require it.”
Francis of Assisi, saint

your ideas are excellent too, because one is on stronger ground when one improves oneself in proper ways and in alignment with gandhi’s “become the change you wish to see”.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 5:59am

Yes that is true they are connected. A powerful observation indeed.

by ‘saving’ the weak and defenseless is how humanity will save itself.

If we take the human body as an analogy (to the earth); yes, strengthen the weak links because our health is as great as our weakest links. But also focus on the root cause of those weak links. I believe we must go deeper into the underlying cause of disease.

I am saying that the ultimate weakness/defenselessness lies in the system itself that allows such cruelty to happen and such confusion to exist in a person’s mind to be able to harm another creature and to perpetuate such ignorance to make it possible that we can actually cause the destruction of our own habitat on such a level.

Of course we are also causing health by having these open discussions and yes becoming that change ourselves. That is absolutely essential.

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 7:13am

of course, markus.

better to heal the wound rather than merely put a bandage on it.

however, to use your body analogy consider the wound. to deal with it one would be smart to eat lfrv because a healthy body heals better (this is your save yourself). however, whether you use a bandage or not, it’s a good idea not to keep rubbing the wound and repeatedly opening it up (this is part of my ‘saving’ the defenseless).

there is no “either or”, no “first and then”.

it is wise to do both.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 6:14am

Thanks for the quotes prad!
but my point is this:
save humanity first and foremost so there won’t be a humanity that abuses the planet to such a degree as there is now but a humanity that is healthy, fed, and equal. Not a utopia but one where children don’t grow up to torture animals to put food on their family’s table. You see, it’s all about money?

I feel that if we focused on the root cause more, the results would extend to even greater depths.
I really think Carlin has a strong point under all the funny jokes. I mean the truth is, the planet will be fine with or without us. It’s us (and yes some other species BECAUSE of us) that are screwed. He was a great social critic. A huge influence on my thinking. and sense of humor =))

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 6:59am

save humanity first and foremost so there won’t be a humanity that abuses the planet to such a degree as there is now but a humanity that is healthy, fed, and equal. Not a utopia but one where children don’t grow up to torture animals to put food on their family’s table. You see, it’s all about money?
no it isn’t just all about money though that often has a lot to do with it.

what it is all about is the concept of human supremacy – the idea that some have about being able to do whatever they please as long as they can get away with it. this is the basis of oppression which is inflicted upon all species including other humans.

carlin is right about the planet is going to be fine with or without humans, but that is of little consolation to the battery hen or the veal calf or the seal who is about to be clubbed.

if we want to stop human supremacy, we are going to have to do more than just lfrv for weightloss. this is one reason freelee created the speak up for animals category here.

to stop the human supremacy syndrome you are going to have to fight oppression:

the way ingrid newkirk, john camody, sinikka crosland, lane ferrante, paul watson and countless others do by creating organizations to rally the best in people.

the way dr does by riding the earth with his message.

the way freelee does by creating her omni-presence on the net.

the way jacob does when he presents arguments against animal abuse.

the way bigG does when he exposes hypocrisy and apathy.

the way patricia glynn does every time she organizes campaigns to protect the helpless.

and the way that tarah does every time she sticks her neck out for those whose throats are about to be cut open: tarah – coveguardian

save humanity first and foremost

as the quotes convey, there is no first and foremost. it’s a single process.

we fight the oppressors and thus liberate ourselves as well.

lfrv is a good component though and it should be pursued to the fullest.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 7:49am

Thanks for your thoughts again Prad, they expand my mind as usual =))

no it isn’t just all about money though that often has a lot to do with it.
Can you think of the ‘less often’ part and maybe think of an example that would not have to do with money… I mean if you really think about what leads to that state of supremacy and oppression in an individual.
Not money per se as in the actual medium of exchance. What I mean when I say that is the results of having a money based system where the main motive for corporations/governments, (to operate and even survive) is profit. This is a big problem when we realize that even the health of the environment, even the well being of humans and other creatures becomes a lesser priority AFTER profit. This of course fuels corruption (that is innate in the free market system), greed, power, and of course through equality: supremacy and oppression.

the idea that some have about being able to do whatever they please as long as they can get away with it.
What do you think causes ‘some’ to behave in such a manner?

It’s sick and insane. But are these ‘some’ we are talking about completely aware of what they are really doing? Are they at peace with themselves? Do they feel a sense of connection to nature, our habitat, our planet? What leads a person to become so disconnected, so sick?
Were they born like this? Or perhaps…. did their upbringing and the society they live in lead them to end up in such a life situation to partake in such acts of violence?

This following quote may seem a bit far off but if given a little thought, the connection can be made and hence my continuous referral to what I believe is the root cause of all of this (= the money-market based socio-economic system):

“We worry about so many dangers to our children -drugs, perverts, bullies- but seldom notice the biggest menace of all: the multibillion dollar marketing effort aimed at turning the kids into oversexed, status-obsessed, attention deficient little consumers.”
– Barbara Ehrenreich

Sounds like pretty good recipe for the disconnection, confusion, ignorance that surely lies in the heart of every supremacist, oppressor… speciesist.

Prad, I have great respect and admiration for you and please don’t forget that. I am just trying to perhaps expand some of our ideas of activism and everything you and those great people you mentioned do. I just wanted to make that clear. I admit, I have questioned myself throughout the years the significance of focusing on the symptoms too much which seems to be something that is not addressed often enough in the various forms of charities that suffice and especially in the media. I have no doubt that these charities are well-meaning. I still question the effectiveness of this when compared to focusing more on that root cause.

as the quotes convey, there is no first and foremost. it’s a single process.
we fight the oppressors and thus liberate ourselves as well.
Well said my friend. But I suggest we give compassion also to the ‘oppressors’ if even remotely possible. Try to see them as us. They are also victims. Otherwise we divide and this stops being a ‘single process’.

As the great Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said when asked about soldiers killing children:
“We all kill the child and we all die with the child.”

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 10:21am

good discussion, markus!

Can you think of the ‘less often’ part and maybe think of an example that would not have to do with money… I mean if you really think about what leads to that state of supremacy and oppression in an individual.
some people take pleasure in hurting others – money doesn’t even enter the picture.

some will even pay money (ie deprive themselves of money) to hurt others or see others being hurt:

pigeon shoot in pa (example of the latter)

animal abuse at conklin dairy farm (example of the former)

fire bull – toro fuego (example of the former)

dog torture in tepi (example of the former the video isn’t there anymore, but if you want to see it let me know)

What I mean when I say that is the results of having a money based system where the main motive for corporations/governments, (to operate and even survive) is profit. This is a big problem when we realize that even the health of the environment, even the well being of humans and other creatures becomes a lesser priority AFTER profit.

of course, and we have no disagreement regarding this at all. certainly from an organizational platform as well as an individual one, money often plays a large role. one of the reasons politicians are rarely leaders is because there’s a lot of money in politics.

What do you think causes ‘some’ to behave in such a manner?

you can find a lot of answers to this question. there is an assumption inherent in such discussions that if you know the cause, you’ll be able to cure the disease. the ideas you provide are likely valid. however, activists aren’t just focused on the cause – they are also focused on terminating the oppressive behavior.

hence, you have some activists who spread the veg message, while you have others who work to stop this sort of thing.

we stop it through increasing public awareness, passing legislation, criminal prosecution and jail terms.

This following quote may seem a bit far off

no i think your quote is right on.

getting to the root causes (or what we think are the root causes), is often a helpful exercise. however, as with the body analogy i used earlier, if you wait around too long trying to figure it all out, the only solution may be amputation.

Sounds like pretty good recipe for the disconnection, confusion, ignorance that surely lies in the heart of every supremacist, oppressor… speciesist.

i’m not so sure about that. i don’t think supremacists, oppressors and speciesists are necessarily disconnected, confused or ignorant.

Prad, I have great respect and admiration for you and please don’t forget that.

that is kind of you markus to say so. i understand you are just exploring ideas and am glad to discuss such things with you here or through the email exchanges we’ve had.

I am just trying to perhaps expand some of our ideas of activism

the ideas you put forth aren’t new. they’ve been around for centuries ever since activism appears. activists are a diverse bunch and each bring various components and approaches to the table.

I have no doubt that these charities are well-meaning. I still question the effectiveness of this when compared to focusing more on that root cause.

some of charities aren’t well-meaning at all (so i choose my charities with considerable care). furthermore, they are often disorganized and counter-productive. focusing more on the root cause, again, is a good idea, but may not even provide a long-term solution, much less a short-term one.

for instance, i know what the root cause of the sun’s energy production is. i can even provide you with the equations which explain it. however, i’m not going be able to stop it, simply because i know these things.

similarly, the root cause of those boys torturing the dog in tepi may be their upbringing or may be there are deranged or all of the reasons, you provided, but that’s not giving me anything with which to stop what they did … or might do again. by all means, address the root causes, but meanwhile take out the oppressor.

I suggest we give compassion also to the ‘oppressors’ if even remotely possible.

not a problem, markus. let’s keep it remote though (as in remote-control or from a safe distance). 😀

when you are faced with a vicious individual intent upon breaking your bones, it may not be of particular utility to look things up in a psycho-babble book. it may be more expedient to protect yourself. (there is one exception to this which is the weapon of non-violence a la gandhi, but it is important to utilize this weapon judiciously and with proper understanding.)

They are also victims.

it may be difficult to convince victims of torture, beatings, dismemberment and murder that they were set upon by other victims. the sentiment, as fine as it is, just doesn’t carry the same pizzazz.

Otherwise we divide and this stops being a ‘single process’.

not necessarily. sometimes amputation gets the body back on the single track because it is rid of the gangrene.

As the great Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said when asked about soldiers killing children:
“We all kill the child and we all die with the child.”

probably correct, however it doesn’t do the slain children much good … more importantly, it doesn’t help to protect those children not yet slain.

i know many of us want to find inner peace and have that manifest itself as outer peace creating a nirvana on earth. it is a most worthy and worthwhile goal. however, in order to create eden, one may have to do some dirty work as unpalatable as it might be.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Barrington on January 24, 2011 at 6:41am

“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”
Thomas Edison, inventor

Quoting Thomas Edison in a discussion about animals, no no no no no! The man was an utter sh*t.

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 7:25am

greetings barrington!

Quoting Thomas Edison in a discussion about animals, no no no no no! The man was an utter sh*t.

the messenger doesn’t change the message.

besides, he was fairly well-behaved as mickey rooney from what i recall. 😀

in friendship,

prad

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 8:44am

Prad,

the messenger doesn’t change the message.

PK needs a like button again.

In Peace

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 8:43am

@ Barrington and Prad,

An aquaintance of mine is in the military. Sometimes for years on end, soldiers have to work with the same unit, crew, and superiors. Like in any human situation, personality conflicts can arise. I asked my aquaintance how he coped with superior officers whom he did not necessarily like.

He said you have to respect the rank, not the person. So if your general tells you to carry out such and such a mission, you carry it out in spite of your personal feelings.

I suppose the same can go for anyone we do not necessarily like or respect. Respect the message, not the messenger.

In Peace, PK

Reply by mish on January 24, 2011 at 5:57am

one philosophy is that the more we place our focus on the negative the more it gets perpetuated;

ie, the more we focus or “fight against” poverty the more it stays a reality in this illusion

the more focus we place on the harm done to animals the more that remains an efffect of this illusion

and so on…

if I focus my perception on death, suffering, hatred then that will be the “reality” I live in.

It is individual and collective perception that forms reality.

if we shift our perspective…place our mind’s main focus on the beauty that is love directed towards humanity, animals and earth the more that will become the effect

maybe?

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 7:33am

if we shift our perspective…place our mind’s main focus on the beauty that is love directed towards humanity, animals and earth the more that will become the effect

maybe?

it sure ain’t gonna hurt, mish!

at the very, very least while such actions may not create heaven on earth, it will bring a bit of the former to one’s own neighborhood.

one philosophy is that the more we place our focus on the negative the more it gets perpetuated

and here’s another, unforgettable in its sincerity and power, which inspired so many on 30bad one year ago:

Actively Promoting Compassion – anyone?

in friendship,

prad

Reply by nickeyp on January 27, 2011 at 11:25am

Very well said. :o)

it is love that conquers all. If only i had the dhammapada. It is written something like this:

She hit me she abused me she hurt me. From thinking this hatred will never cease.

She hit me she abused me she hurt me. From abstaining from these thoughts, hatred ceases – love/compassion wins.

It is from compassion to animals and standing for what is empathic and love that we will have better lives on earth.

the dhammapada said this 2500 years ago and it’s truth is felt even today!

the couplet is on the first verse of the dhammapada.

nck

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 8:47am

mish,

if I focus my perception on death, suffering, hatred then that will be the “reality” I live in.

This actually has to be the focus of many professionals. For example, Doctors may hate to see a child who has been injured in a car accident and will bleed to death without medical intervention.

But, they have to put their personal emotions aside, focus on the trauma at hand, and try to fix it according to their abilities.

In Peace, PK

Reply by Leo B on January 24, 2011 at 6:17am

I totally agree with you Markus. There will always be floods, earthquakes, poverty. The charities will never end. The appeals for donations will never end. As a matter of fact theres not even a fraction of how many charities there should be in the world to help save every animal. We need to go to the root problem. The root problem is adressing the human. A LFRV diet will bring a lot of contentment into peoples lives. It will restore our energy levels, clear the mental fog, bring happiness. Once a human has a certain level of contentment, they only want peace and happiness around them.

I’ve never seen a happy person who’s mean!

After I eat a large mono meal, I have a big smile on my face. I feel so great.

Lately I’ve been meaning to do some volunteering. But I have no idea what I want to do. The question “is this worth my while” comes up a lot. Maybe ill help promote veganism in my city :)Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 6:34amDelete

I’ve never seen a happy person who’s mean!
That is profound Leo and very true. I would also add to that: happiness and dumbness/numbness is often confused for one another e.g. many people “think” they are happy when they are drunk or high on drugs. Or when they don’t have a clue what is going on around them to enable their “happy” lifestyles.Just be a light to everyone around you. Volunteer into your own radiance. Be an activist by being active. Promote veganism by showing them what a truly healthy and happy individual can look like.I also recommend you look into The Zeitgeist Movement.

Reply by Leo B on January 24, 2011 at 6:49am

Its true, taking away the pain is associated with feeling good. Most people have no clue how if feels like to thrive. When I explain this diet sometimes, ppl might say “I feel good as It is, thats just over the top” I usually say to them, theres a huge difference between surviving and thriving. We can survive on flour and water for a certain amount of days but definitely not be thriving. Ppl seem to understand that point.

Being a light is definitely what I feel even ‘forced’ to do. All my friends know my diet and they all think its radical. I have to do all elements of 80/10/10 and be a light with my results.

I know the zeitgeist movie but not the movement. Ill check it out. thnx.

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 9:01am

Markus,

happiness and dumbness/numbness is often confused for one another

Great thought.

In Peace, PK

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 8:59am

Leo,

Regarding floods and poverty, and even earthquakes:

We can solve their problems with fruit trees and well, just trees!

Very rarely do you hear of people living in a rainforest abounding with trees experiencing floods. The reason is trees absorb so much water. Their roots also hold topsoil.

The places you here about flooding are like the Mississippi River Basin in the United States. So much land along the Miss. River has been developed for agriculture and there are very few trees. Once every few years, there is a big rain and or a lot of snow melt runoff. And, what happens, flooding which leads to destroyed crops, higher food prices, and more poverty.

Even in extreme cases of drought and flooding, trees are very resilient. In many cases they stay alive and live to see another year.

About Earthquakes: In 2005, there was a devastating earthquake in Pakistan the killed almost 80,000 people. (Kashmir Earthquake) When I was watching the news regarding this event, I noticed that most of the buildings that collapsed were concrete and made of manmade processed material. The houses that survived the earthquake were made of wood. It got me thinking that in the future, architects and engineers should focus more on natural materials, not only because they are greener, but because they could be safer. Safer for us and the environment.

So, fruity toast to fruit trees, happy people, less flooding and poverty!

In Peace, PK

PS I feel great after mono meals also!

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 9:04am

I hope and would appreciate it if everyone reading make sure to watch the video before commenting on this thread as I think it’s point is very important. and it is also hilarious! Thnx

Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 11:09am

People have the ability to choose better options but the animals they don’t have much of a choice.

I prefer to be with animals then most people.

I would say maybe about 10% of people are worth even being around the rest even in the year 2011 continue in chosing there own payment plan to suicide.

Good riddance to most.

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbpikGN_NpY

Take Care,

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 11:32am

I would say maybe about 10% of people are worth even being around the rest even in the year 2011 continue in chosing there own payment plan to suicide.

there is a saying bigG which goes something like this:

“there are 3 kinds of people. those who don’t make much of a difference. those who make the world a better place before leaving it. those who make the world a better place by leaving it.”

as per video, best and yourofsky are important icons in the fight against oppression, courageous and uncompromising. you’ve talked to gary too i think, right? i recall intervening once when gary was being told how to run his website by a more ‘pacifist’ ar activist … not that he needed my help, but his attacker certainly did. 😀 😀 😀

anyway, both are writers of the first order and you can find their works on their sites:

http://www.drstevebest.org/

http://adaptt.org/

in friendship,

prad

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 9:08am

Prad,

“there are 3 kinds of people. those who don’t make much of a difference. those who make the world a better place before leaving it. those who make the world a better place by leaving it.”

PK’s Like Button

In Peace

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 24, 2011 at 11:26am

Just for the record, there are some of us who are entirely selfless and are not out to save humans in any way.

I, for one, believe in the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement and would much rather see humans obliterated from this earth than spend my time trying to save humanity.

I don’t give a damn about our species. I’m not saying that this point of view is either good nor bad, but I spend much of my time advocating for animal and environmental rights with no hidden agenda.

Just saying…

Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 1:20pm

Tarah,

I can’t find the thumbs up icon but if I could I would post mutlitple ones.

Prad,

🙂

Yeah spoke to him over the phone and he is committed 100%. No waffle company will ask him to be on the cover of the box.

Thanks for the link.

By the way for those that may not know what Prad does for animals and those that help them is simply inspiring.

Of course he had to give up his long life dream of opening up a hot dog/ Gryos/veal stand. 🙂

Take Care,

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 25, 2011 at 12:28am

Thanks BigG 🙂

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 2:07pm

for those of you who are unaware of the voluntary human extinction movement, here is the website:

vhemt

tarah, your post (wonderfully direct and honest as always) as well as that bigG’s earlier one, reminds me of one of the best xfiles episodes Je Souhaite – the one about the genie or jinnaih who grants him 3 wishes. his first wish was for peace on earth and it is granted by the removal of the entire human species:

MULDER: So the trick would be to make a wish that’s totally altruistic. That’s for everyone. So, um… I wish for peace on earth.

JENN: Peace on earth. That’s it?

(MULDER is now concerned.)

MULDER: What the hell’s wrong with that? You can’t do it?

JENN: No. I can.

(Pause.)

JENN: It’s done.

(MULDER is beaming happily. Then he realizes that all traffic sounds outside have disappeared. His face falls.)

MULDER: Oh, crap.

(He goes to the window and looks out the blinds. He runs outside. The street is full of empty cars and buses. He looks in a bus stopped at the corner of Market Street.)

MULDER: I guess I should have seen this coming! (concerned) Scully.

(He makes his way on foot to the FBI building and goes to his office.)

MULDER: Scully?

(No answer. He walks through the deserted hall in the building. Scattered files on the floor indicate where people may have been walking.)

MULDER: Hello? Hello?

(He goes to SKINNER’s office. Also empty.)

MULDER: (applauding sarcastically) Very good. Jinni? Jinni, whatever the hell your name is…

(She is sitting in SKINNER’s chair.)

JENN: Yes?

MULDER: What the hell is this?

JENN: It’s what you asked for. Peace on earth. Listen.

(She exaggeratedly listens to the lack of sound.)

MULDER: You know damn well that’s not what I meant.

JENN: You didn’t specify.

MULDER: This has nothing to do with specificity. You don’t have to wipe out the entire population of the whole planet just to effect a little peace on earth and goodwill towards men.

JENN: You didn’t say goodwill towards men. So you expect me to change the hearts of six billion people? No religion in history has been able to pull that off. Not Allah or Buddha or Christ. But you’d like me to do that in your name? So… what? You can feel real good about yourself?

i think wanting peace on earth (and let’s not forget the goodwill to) is a great idea. however, it’s going to take a bit of serious work to make it happen and some just may like it about as much as they liked the big flood.

and bigG, people should know that in between all the work you do on behalf of animals, you keep trying to invite me out to mcdonalds every weekend.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 2:41pm

Prad,

shhhhhhhhhhh 🙂

Cool story.

I to want a peaceful world but the sooner the people go that are disturbing the peace the better for all of us.

2011 and no excuse anymore for being either being part of the problem or part of the solution.

I believe that those that destroy the earth will be destroyed by the earth.

I am not the director just an actor.

Prad,

You suggested 2 very good sites.

http://www.drstevebest.org/

http://adaptt.org/

Take Care,Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 3:00pm

I thought the following comments where interesting from some well known educational schools.

http://www.adaptt.org/comments-educators.html#

Take Care,

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 25, 2011 at 12:30am

Love it, Prad! Absolutely great post. My point, exactly.

Reply by Freelee on January 24, 2011 at 7:37pm

“Voluntary Human Extinction Movement”

Tarah that’s an interesting perspective, I’ve never really thought about it in that way and I totally hear you. Sometimes I would just like to see the Planet nuked, at least that way the animals won’t have to suffer anymore…. but then I see people changing infront of me, like my mum and brother going vegan and becoming outspoken on veganism and then seeing their friends change….and as a result my faith in humanity *somewhat* restored.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever does”

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 25, 2011 at 12:35am

Of course, Freelee.

I haven’t lost all faith in humankind.

The concept was brought to me by a book called “The World Without Us” by Alan Weisman. It simply opened my eyes, and placed before me a utopia on earth devoid of human destruction. I’ve dreamt of it ever since.

Reply by Freelee on January 25, 2011 at 12:52pm

nice 🙂

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 9:18am

Freelee,

Many world religions were started by one prophet.

In Peace, PK

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 5:35am

garth, nice poems.

you write:

No more heroics.

tarah is engaged in heroics of the best kind. she carries the dignity and courage this species is capable of wherever she goes:

tarah – coveguardian

take a close look and you should see that.

people like tarah are needed to compensate for the cruelty, apathy and complacency that so many of the same species have made their trademark.

in friendship,

prad

Let us live with open hearts and benevolent minds within the seasons we are blessed to receive.

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 7:34am

garth,

it seems to me that your cat hasn’t left you at all. how could she having experienced the kindness you bestowed on her? and as i told my friend honey sheperd only a few days before she was found dead, every end brings with it a new beginning.

i think you may be correct about not owning our life and it is indeed a gift … you express it with great eloquence and compassion. here is another expression of the same idea:

“life owes us nothing. we owe life everything. the only way to true happiness is to squander ourselves in a worthwhile pursuit.”

this is what tarah and many others are doing. they are the big spenders!

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 25, 2011 at 8:30am

Thank you for the beautiful words Garth.

Love is high on my list of priorities, but it certainly does not provide an excuse to sit back and watch this earth be exploited. We may feel that “living with peace and love” with save this earth, but not from what I’ve seen.

I saw over 200 dolphins slaughtered. Men sawing their spinal cords as they lay writhing in pain, their family only feet away, aware and watching. Drowning in their own blood. Dolphins gutted alive surrounded by their ripped apart family members. Babies taken away to a life of slavery in a concrete box after viewing the slaughter of their friends and family. Peace and love sure isn’t gonna save em’.

Living by example is sure great and all, but IMHO we need action combined with our peaceful existence. We can live without activism only while we remain sheltered from the horrors happening as we speak. When we open our eyes we cannot deny that environmental and animal activism is absolutely necessary. I wrote in a recent article that as humans we harbor intelligence and the capacity for choice. We can choose to sit back and watch our fellow earthlings suffer by our species hand or we can do something about it.

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 25, 2011 at 12:35pm

I understand entirely Garth, but who said anything about war?

I’m simply speaking of standing up for those who do not have a voice. If we continue to let these atrocities against animals and our environment happen we are essentially giving our approval.

Each time we choose to act or stay silent we are casting a vote. There are many forms of activism that range from vegan outreach to ramming whaling vessels in Antarctica. Each is equally effective and has its place. What we cannot do is allow ourselves to remain complacent.

Would you feel different if each being on this earth facing harm at human hands were your own family? We must act as if we were experiencing the pain of the earth. Consider the pain of each forest, every animal, our oceans, your own. When we place ourselves in the shoes of others the picture often changes.Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 1:25pm

I said may we be granted the courage….. I don’t know … who am I to question the why of the world as we know it? . . . .just another dumbed down human I suppose. humble sigh.

garth,

it is said that in humility does wisdom make her abode. your humble sigh shows you are anything but a “dumbed down human”.

it is also said that
“sometimes it takes courage to stand up and speak, while sometimes it takes courage to sit down and listen.”

may those “tears of love” you spoke of above form the portal through which is magnified the answers which always reside right in front of us, heard only by those who are willing to listen.

tarah, freelee, dr, ednshell, bigG, moiraine, markus and many others are your family through a connection much stronger than mere blood. the bond is wrought through the fire of compassion and the hammer of persistence.

now see your family as they really are, for you too are there:

the new lothlorien

in friendship,
prad

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 11:19am

I wrote in a recent article that as humans we harbor intelligence and the capacity for choice. We can choose to sit back and watch our fellow earthlings suffer by our species hand or we can do something about it.

here is the link to tarah’s published article:

The Cove Article In Watershed Sentinel!!

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Tarah Shannon on January 26, 2011 at 12:17pm

That’s ok Garth, different opinions and beliefs are necessary. This does not, however, give any of us an excuse to sit back and watch as animals and our earth are exploited.

Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 3:18pm

Prad,

Mentioned this man in a link.

Here is an interesting video for those that have not taken the time to look at the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG_aNnx6E4g&feature=related

Take Care,

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 3:34pm

i’m glad to hear best emphasize that the ar movement is so strong. in fact, it has moved faster than any social justice movement in history (including anti-racism, feminism, rights for the disabled etc).

some ar people don’t realize this and think that we are still in the dark ages. well we are to some extent, but there’s been a steadily increasing light brightening the place up over the past three decades and the rays come from many fields such as cognitive science, philosophy, health, environment, biology and ethics, not to mention the day-to-day work some do in the trenches to stop oppression, engage in rescue, educate others and set an example through their own health, diet and conduct.

as my friend, treesitter leanne mallet told us many years ago, we need everyone.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Jacob Chase on January 24, 2011 at 4:09pm

When I argue for animal liberation, I consider myself warring against the overwhelming majority of humanity. I do it for the animals, I do it for my vegan comrades, I even do it for myself, as it’s an integral, inextricable part of my preferences and convictions. But I do not do it for “us”.

Ultimately, I do think that the abolition of the production, purchase and consumption of animal products could literally save the earth from some pretty massive destruction, as well as unnecessary disease, death and suffering amongst humans, thereby saving much of humanity as well. So a nice little byproduct of animal liberation does go towards the benefit of mankind.

But for the most part, I do what I do for the animals that humans victimize, and them alone.

Reply by BigG. on January 24, 2011 at 4:13pm

Jacob,

Thanks interesting point you brought up. Gary mentions something interesting about being a vegan here.

Worth the entire watch but if you want to forward it to 1:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=833M6ijbrCM
it really ties in with something you typed about .

Jacob glad your doing your part.

Take Care,

Reply by ednshell on January 24, 2011 at 4:29pm

Woh, a great talk there!!! Thanks Big G! 🙂

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 4:56pm

that is typical of the in your face, no compromise, no joking around honesty that gary is well-known for. as one of the audience there put it:

very motivational and informative. i’d feel like such a selfish jackass if i was in that room and didn’t walk out a vegan.

sometimes, you have to feel like a jackass before you stop acting like one.

(ya, jacob does his part … and more)

in friendship,

prad

Reply by ednshell on January 24, 2011 at 5:14pm

Did you watch the talk or are just talking about Prad’s comment he quoted? The talk did not make me feel that way at all.

Reply by ednshell on January 24, 2011 at 5:58pm

oh okay good, because the talk is awesome! 🙂

I think the comment made might be better put as “this speaker drives his points home so succinctly that no one could walk out of there feeling anything but pure compassion for farm animals and an urgent desire to make their lifestyle choices congruent with that compassion.”

I agree that feeling like a jackass is a real turn off, lol! 😉

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 5:18pm

greetings ben and/or tasha!

and welcome to 30bad too!

you write:

Making people feel like a jackass is not exactly the best way to get them to want to listen.

i’m not too sure about that – the technique seems to do the job in many situations and can be quite motivational to those who are genuinely interested in bettering themselves. besides, i didn’t say anything about making someone feel like a jackass.

That is the kind of attitude that pushed me away from the vegan diet for many years.

that is a curious rationale that the attitude of someone else should determine your action.

I’ve never been a fan of organized religion….

i am fine with organized religions, though it’s what the religion teaches that makes me a fan or not.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 4:24am

i believe the video gary showed (but you can’t see it in the excerpt) is the conklin farm brutality.

here’s our thread on it:

animal abuse at conklin dairy farm

in friendship,

prad

Reply by pradtf on January 24, 2011 at 6:13pm

i don’t think too much of george carlin’s humor. i don’t find it funny. it is more like ranting to me.

(i don’t care for monty python either, but i do like the computer language named in honor thereof.)

however, i think it should be pointed out that george carlin had the respect of many in the ar world for certain things he said and wrote:

the peta files

George Carlin on Animal Rights

in friendship,

prad

Reply by ednshell on January 24, 2011 at 6:59pm

Wow, interesting.

George says:

“I’m also uneasy about the sheer number of scientific experiments performed on animals. First of all, animals are not always good models for medical experimentation: Penicillin kills guinea pigs; an owl is not bothered by cyanide; monkeys can survive strychnine, etc., etc.

Couldn’t these scientific tests just as easily be performed on humans? Condemned prisoners, old people, the feeble, the terminally ill? I’m sure there are plenty of ignorant, desperate Americans who would be willing to volunteer in exchange for some small electrical appliance.”

I am sure any test truly worthwhile could be done on humans. People who test on animals must be suffering from chronic mental disorders with abnormal or violent social behavior. I’m curious what legal pursuits and arguments have been made to protect these test animals, it’s hard to believe it’s legal to do what I’ve seen in those laboratory videos.

While I’m on this topic, what is up with the “mad scientist” image? I once drove through a town called Los Alamos, a town of scientists. I made one stop, my friend and I went inside a restaurant, everyone there was very quiet, almost no talking, everyone was very pale and thin and very serious looking. We got back to the car and we both felt scared and that we should get out of there right away. I talked with one other person who had this same experience when driving through. Do we need to start a movement to specifically target scientists to do some meditation or yoga or change their diet or something? What is the deal? This is all just food for thought, our whole society is weird but scientists do seem to be in a class of their own, eh? Supposedly very intelligent, supremely logical minds, so what is missing?

Reply by markus on January 24, 2011 at 10:52pm

Thanks I will take a day or two to immerse myself with the videos, links, etc which have been suggested here.

My starting point right now is still one of slight disagreement and skepticism regarding the effectiveness of focusing too much on saving individual species and even the notion that there are “humans” and then there are “animals”. I personally don’t see us as any less under the knife or deserving to be “nuked” out or extinct. There are a lot of good, caring people in this world (like us) who can still see a future where there doesn’t have to be such unnecessary cruelty. Such hypocrisy.

I am trying to understand the point of view of the animal rights activist.
I look forward to also some lectures by Youroufsky and Best which I have found through the links kindly provided. This stuff is not new to me. A big part of the reason why I am a vegan is that I don’t want to support murdering. I still think that is the most important thing we can do and essential; to stop consuming animal products. So make no mistake, we are on the same page regarding that.

But I do feel I must repeat myself: I am still haunted and deeply hurt by knowing that there are voiceless creatures dying every second, alone and scared. I am simply confused about how best to make sure that this stops. I am questioning whether signing petitions, etc is effective in the long run? Has it been so far? It seems not. As I said in original post. We can keep on patching up wounds and symptoms here and there. Even amputate but if we don’t address (and I mean remove) the underlying cause, more wounds and sickness will continue to surface and eventually take over until nothing is to be done.

The only activist movement I have ever been apart of is this: www.thezeitgeistmovement.com
Why? Check out the link and read some of the essays there + watch the videos.
I am hoping those not familiar with this movement, take the time to realize that such a movement exists. And I would argue, it is MUCH bigger than any animal rights, human rights or other movement that has existed and is growing at a pace that nobody (including the founders of the organization) never expected. Close to half a million members and now (because of the new documentary they just released) expanding at almost 1000 members a week. You can see the statistics at the right hand side of the website. I could be wrong (and please point out if I am) but what are the numbers regarding various other organizations trying to take action and make a difference? Oh and the movement is also only just under 3 years old. btw, I don’t think this is a competition. I hope in the future, the various movements throughout the world, come together and WORK together. Please go to the website for more.

Enjoy your day folks and I hope to find some more common ground on these issues and think together. Also I might remind to not assume that we are all on an equal knowledge level regarding these matters. Some of us clearly know more about some areas than others. I still feel that the points addressed by Carlin in the video, have not been fully understood/addressed. Or at least that understanding has not been expressed well enough for someone like me who is still taking some careful steps, not knowing fully what these waters may lurk.

No, peace and spreading it is not enough. Nor is the “law of attraction” whatwethinkof-will-manifest mind games which we like to play. Action is called for. Of that I have no doubt. Perhaps that is a good starting point to which we all agree on.

Well, gotta go eat some bananas now and get ready for my floorball game.
Have a nice day folks. Look forward to more thoughts on this. I’ll get back to you asap =))

Reply by mish on January 25, 2011 at 4:29am

“I am trying to understand the point of view of the animal rights activist.”

Oh, then maybe watch Will Tuttle speak, his opinion why for humans’ sake we need to evolve our compassion for animal beings in order to develop it for each other, in order to survive

Will Tuttle on Animal Activism

The World Peace Diet (trying to add the vid – page acting weird)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih9x8XsCuio

Reply by ednshell on January 25, 2011 at 4:42am

Yes, Will is a wonderful speaker! I saw him here in St. Louis recently.

Reply by mish on January 25, 2011 at 4:48am

I love exactly how he says it in this vid. Makes ultimate sense in my mind. I saw him speak here in LA. There were only like, 10 ppl there – he should have audience of thousands. Her paintings of animals are great!

AH-HA! old embed THANKS PRAD! this is the vid

Reply by ednshell on January 25, 2011 at 4:52am

Yes, I have some of her cards! 🙂 The thing that stuck out for me when he spoke was when he pointed out that if an alien was to observe us, they would have to say that our main activity was eating animals along with everything that goes into that. It’s true.

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 5:07am

many good points here markus!

it’s a good starting point, imho and leaves plenty of room for other opportunities. not sure what you meant by ‘such hypocrisy’ but if it is about the nuke comment, there is nothing hypocritical there. when you see a problem, it is perfectly reasonable to take it out … the solution may not be humane, but it still may be a solution. in fact, carlin adamantly advocates it in his own way several times in the video and in the writings i’ve posted.

there is no law in nature which says one must be loyal to one’s own species.

I am simply confused about how best to make sure that this stops.

the ‘best way’ is a multi-varied approach because different people respond better to specific stimuli. also, different styles of delivery suit different people.

this is why it is erroneous to proselytize a single best way the way some people do on socially acceptable behavioral terms.

also, repetition is important as with any ‘sales’ campaign:

Are you number 11

Even amputate but if we don’t address (and I mean remove) the underlying cause, more wounds and sickness will continue to surface and eventually take over until nothing is to be done.

quite correct! one way is insufficient – or as aldous huxley wrote in island: “nothing short of everything will really do”.

The only activist movement I have ever been apart of is this: www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

very sensible, imho.

i believe andreasoliver has something going regarding it on 30bad and has posted several times about it too. perhaps we should make a push on this.

what are the numbers regarding various other organizations trying to take action and make a difference?

peta’s membership alone is close to a million (may be more since i last looked a couple of years ago). hsus is hitting the 10 million mark. and of course, there are thousands of smaller groups:

world animal network

(when i worked on a database 4 years ago with their listing there were less than 2000 – now it’s grown to over 3000, i see – just with the affiliates)

Enjoy your day folks and I hope to find some more common ground on these issues and think together.

common ground isn’t a suitable goal.

solid ground based on ethical principles is where we must meet eventually.

I still feel that the points addressed by Carlin in the video, have not been fully understood/addressed.

perhaps you could specific which ones. as i indicated, i’m no fan of carlin’s as a comedian. i also find some of his ar commentary to be illogically constructed, even if i’m in agreement with them. however, it cannot be denied the guy is in your face, gutsy and uncompromising which is likely why many in the ar community have great respect for him.

Action is called for. Of that I have no doubt. Perhaps that is a good starting point to which we all agree on.

this is powerful stuff, markus – and even better expressed than my ‘solid ground’ concept, imho. we don’t have to necessarily agree with or support our ‘colleagues’ actions (i just didn’t with george), but there is no need to necessarily condemn them simply because we don’t want to do things their way.

Have a nice day folks. Look forward to more thoughts on this.

markus, your thread has turned into an important discussion. your calm and responsive demeanor, earnest quest for understanding and courteous management is largely why it has become so.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by PK on February 4, 2011 at 9:36am

Markus,

I have researched a little bit on the Natural Hygiene movement regarding human diet and health. Although I do not agree with everything NH teaches, the main pearl of wisdom I walked away with is not to just treat the symptoms, but treat the cause.

If I just take tylonel for a headache that is the result of a toxic body, the headache will only return, and return worse because I have just increased my toxic load.

I now look at all problems with a NH point of view. Whether it is animal rights and or extinction, environmental, flooding, poverty, etc. As someone pointed out, we can keep giving and giving to charities, but we are not fixing the problems of poverty in the first place.

There is a controversy out there in the world which asks who helped the most people, Bill Gates or Mother Theresa? While Mother Theresa was an excellent human being, she did not do much to alleviate poverty. She fed the poor and needy and sent them on their way still poor and potentially hungry.
Bill Gates computer technology has provided a platform for countless people to pursue an education, get jobs, and feed their families, thus temporarily eradicating poverty for many people all over the world.

So, I think I am getting your point regarding the need to do more, and find a systemic solutions to our problems.

The video was a very funny look at our narrow minded views on our problems.

BTW, this was another reply I made on this thread regarding the (fruit) Tree Cure

In Peace, PK

Reply by Moiraine Damodred on January 25, 2011 at 12:18am

I hate to say this, but I don’t really like George Carlin, and I think he is way oversimplifying the issue. No one is saying “save” as in a grand superhero scheme of any sorts. We mean, just those little things. Sure, *I* can do all three of your excellent steps to save animals, but…what if no one else does? Don’t you to think that to “save” animals, I should speak out? I should explain to others how ugly the world really is right now? We can’t just sit here and let worldwide slaughter of whales pass by entirely unnoticed, can we? I think he exhibits exactly what the rest of American society exhibits, and frankly, I don’t like it.

Reply by markus on January 25, 2011 at 12:48am

Thanks for your thoughts Moiraine.
btw, I added a few more ‘steps’ to my original post. You’re right we can’t just sit here eating fruit all day and twiddling our thumbs!I think he exhibits exactly what the rest of American society exhibits.
You obviously don’t know George Carlin. He is the antithesis of American society. You are dead wrong on this one.

Reply by Moiraine Damodred on January 25, 2011 at 8:24am

Oooo, I love that you didn’t skip directly from Step 3 to Step 5, and managed to include Step 4 in there, instead. 😀

I have to admit I don’t know him, but I’ve watched several of his talks, and he doesn’t strike me as interesting, personally. However, that is just my personal opinion, and I realize he is an interesting and fascinating character to many out there, so I’m sorry if I offended you in any way! :)Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 5:14am

No one is saying “save” as in a grand superhero scheme of any sorts.

this is an excellent point moiraine!

carlin’s rendition is oversimplified and presumptive. the scientific ‘facts’ are not properly applied either. well, i guess that is poetic license. 😀

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Moiraine Damodred on January 25, 2011 at 8:25am

Haha, yes, well, he gets a poetic license on stage. 😉 After all the goal is entertainment, here, not science…that’s our goal. ;P

Reply by ednshell on January 25, 2011 at 5:03am

Agreed 🙂 To see how one person can make such a difference just watch, “It’s A Wonderful Life’. 🙂

We all make a difference in our own lives and in the world with every choice we make.

I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; And because I cannot do everything I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Keller, Helen

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens ca…

Margaret Mead

“Stand before the people you fear and speak your mind — even if your voice shakes.”

Maggie Kuhn

Reply by pradtf on January 25, 2011 at 5:25am

Well it is pretty simple.

the importance of your statement cannot be overstated, vv.

it reminds me of the buddhist verses which say the following about the four faults which prevent us from realizing the nature of mind:

1. it is too close to be recognized.

2. it is too profound to fathom.

3. it is too easy to believe it is so.

4. it is too wonderful to accommodate.

so it is and the answers are always just “blowin’ in the wind”.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by Alyxandra Alysia Pitre on January 25, 2011 at 10:03am

check out the radio podcast for WNYC Radioab, the “Oops” episode

I literally just finished listening to it. relevence

Reply by markus on January 25, 2011 at 7:39pm

I recommend you provide link please if you want to contribute, otherwise your post will go unnoticed.
thnx

Reply by Brian_H on January 25, 2011 at 1:00pm

I use to worry so badly that things won’t come into place. I almost thought I had to give up my personal life, almost like renunciation, then committing myself to the sword, then get into competitions, and show the world who’s boss. It was with heavy self-doubt and impatience.

It’s hard to say how things will come into place. It’s hard to say which path is the “path” to walk when making a difference. For so many years ever since the age of 18 until now…I contemplated.

Once you figure out your local connections, and what adults hafta go through; and what they endure once crappy laws and financial economic problems come into place, one would realize that even committed adults who wanna screw over veganism or whatever social justice movement, are as busy as any adult would be. If they wanna bohl**** on the net, acting like they’ll screw any social justice movement over; they’re REALLY full of bohl***t and would falter eventually.

I understood all of this..the very hard way, until it was too late. Pelvic bone injury after such impatience.

One may pursue the path aggressively, with the intent of love. Almost like dumping urine on your close friends, to have them realize “DUDE, YOU’RE MESSING THIS WORLD UP WITH THAT HABIT! EVERY BIT YOU DO MAKES A DIFFERENCE! WAKE THE F*** UP MAN!”

Or play dirty in a non-violent, yet legal way. Which is what I do rarely, when the calling is nigh. =)

Or just passively and still with love. I think about Supreme Master Ching Hai and her associates who do works worldwide. In fact, they’re also the main core…as to why veganism is spreading. And NO THEY ARE NOT A CULT! And the associates are everyday people like you and I, with their imperfections. They just do their best in life, and also committing to NOT lie, steal, cheat, commit adultery, etc. Always playing by the law and the book. If it was me, I play dirty sometimes, even if it’s to emit a bit of benefit to something I cherish. Anyways, the international group is bigger of an influence than ya’d think. Not to mention, getting to spiritual roots and answering such difficult questions when living daily life.

I dunno, I look at what everyone does locally, what they do, etc. And I also look at the big corporations and how it affects things locally. All is connected.

Well, whatever change you wanna bring, the idea is to not force yourself to do things you’re not into. And just follow the heart.

It was a hard decision and contemplation, as to how to pursue the path and what to do to bring change. Things will come into place………patience is the challenge. Just walk the path of change whenever you’re ready.

Reply by Brian_H on January 25, 2011 at 1:24pm

I’d also hafta mention, if people really wanna speed up the process of the peace coming…….

I notice even amongst well-intentioned grassroots folks, there’s quite a number that are still being a bunch of marginal f***s. I say this with good intent, and only to criticize what is not good for the heart. Kinda like how some people realize that I am not in post secondary. Why does that matter? I bear no ill-will. I got my wealth of info to share. I do not discriminate people’s background or social status either. I got a unique appearance. Also I don’t get into casual conversations easily, it’s always personal, sarcastic, or solemn. Feels like I get ignored for certain similar things.

Even being judged by bodily appearances might be a problem. I mean it’s…a good thing to “get fit” and show the world that you’d kick a$$ on a vegan or raw vegan dietary path. Sure. But it IS a problem when in social occasions…people still discriminate…even if unintentionally..a person’s appearance. Like c’mon now….if a person’s fat, skinny, etc etc….it’s terribly unfair to judge hate’em on the spot. But to use visuals to determine one’s well being and age; that’d be fair. Kinda like how one would determine one’s age and mood, by seeing it as it is. Instead of HATING on people for looking “ugly” or “old” or whatever, when such qualities bear no ill-will.

Also I must note: There are hardcore…vegan folk out there that don’t BS around the bush. Maybe I remember of one person who’s totally intolerant of compromise. Another mistake from similar folk is judging them for being so “closed off” or “too negative of energy.”

Heck, I am blunt and brutal myself. I just try not to show it, because it will REALLY make people uncomfortable. And I don’t want that, yet I am prone to showing such rage.

Those who intend “good will” yet emit such anger and “negative energy.” It’s a ridiculous idea to cut off contact with such folks, and ignore them. Instead, sitting your a$$ and listening would get you somewhere.

I too have a certain rage and odd personality, that for some reason, people, even of like-mind folks, want to avoid me, when I bear no ill-will. I get really puzzled and irritated by this. And only think to myself. “Moving on.” Yet those who are not so marginal, and read one’s intent….they love me; ’cause they’re aware that I bear no ill-will, and only hold such..whatever emotions are there…..because of how the world is.

Simply said, I get along with rural folks like (even those doing the activism) so well, like you won’t believe (the ones I ran into so far at least.)

My point here, is that there are those who also..even if partially…take part in activism. If not, at least just the lifestyle.

Such people that wanna see change, need to f***ing cut out the crap and stop judging people for their social status and titles. And understand that we all work hard in our own ways. Depending on where you live….I see a lot of “judgement” sometimes of social status, appearance, etc. even amongst those who claim to be vegan. It’s starting to annoy me.

I even had to blast it directly at someone: “If someone’s going to love me, judging by appearances ain’t love. But to determine my age and that I ain’t as old as your pops, that’s fair. But to input discriminating aesthetics criterion [of course all aesthetics ideals are discriminating and is never love] when finding a partner, is a load of crap; and whoever dares to apply such to me can kiss my a$$ for that is not real friendship. I do not need to be punished for having harmless appearances.”

Saying that, I thought veganism was also a lifestyle that practices compassion.

I am still irritated to this day. If people are gonna continue a lifestyle that has that “aesthetics criterion of great discrimination,” better keep that s*** controlled and not apply it harmfully to another life. Or someone’s gonna have a word with me. I don’t need anymore people wanting to suicide for not “looking beautiful” or “hot” despite bearing no ill-will. I would go into how people have tainted what sexuality is…but I suppose I rambled on that one already.

I believe in unconditional love and respect, and always watch every little thing I do. Yet if you see me wanting to throw a friendly sword duel; there’s a fair reason for it. It’s just my way of wanting to slap someone out of their…misguided attitude.

And saying all this…….every bit we do…think…feel..eat..play…WHATEVER; every bit makes a difference. We all got bad habits, so do I…just gotta work on it slowly. Much like those who are quitting smoking. Every bit makes a difference. I am hoping people will drop the conditioned habit of marginalizing the “weird folk who bear no ill-will.” Only will the peace speed up. =)

Reply by markus on January 25, 2011 at 7:37pm

Brian, I have no idea what you are talking about.
It says on your profile:
need to get myself organized then grab a copy.
Yes you do.
Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/80-10-Diet/dp/1893831248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&a…

Reply by Brian_H on January 26, 2011 at 2:59pm

Woops

I guess the intent of all that said before, is simply put, that if people hope for change, and fast; even those who claim to be “grassroots,” they need to cut out the ego trip. Ego trip that comes in the form of…discrimination. I suppose I am being vague, because I had quite a few personal experiences where people look at me funny, even when I am in such “like-minded” groups. I almost just gave up on the idea of going to specific places.

Reply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 4:26am

This following post is a little long and a little aggressive. My juices were flowing and I wanted to say what I have to say. No offense meant to anyone. I have learned a lot in the last few days. I’m glad I started this discussion.

BigG, I have to say thanks for sharing that Gary Yourofsky lecture. I’ve already watched it twice and will continue to watch it again. A powerful messenger carrying a powerful message. No b*******. Saying it like it is. My kind of human being. I find myself becoming more like this (or trying…) as well so it’s nice to know there are others out there who speak the truth and speak it clear. I’m also currently reading a book called “Radical Honesty” which I highly recommend to everyone who is tired of thinking half-assed thoughts, pleasing others and preaching lullabies to fat, stupid, lazy impostors who don’t know how to use mirrors or alarms (metaphorically speaking).

As for our little ‘debate’. It’s interesting. Have been looking for some answers. Found some. Still searching for others. I live in Finland and I came across some interesting links and organizations that are here close to me. I know that animals are not treated kindly here either. People seem to think they are and that these videos (usually from the good ol’ USA) are isolated incidents. Yadeyadeyaa. They think the animals are cared for and respected. Or they think they are here for our use. Well, they have one big obstacle now to deal with. Me. That’s right. I’ve had enough of this s***. If people want to shove innocent animals down their throats in front of me, I’ll tell them a nice little story (or pull out my laptop) to make sure those animals come back up as puke and haunt them in their dreams. And if people want to debate with me on this, I’ll kindly remind them that there’s a third party here involved that doesn’t get to debate and this kind of debating does not work for me. I already talked with someone close to me today and we decided to go see firsthand what is going on in these slaugtherhouses and animal farms. If they don’t let us in, we’ll get in. I won’t be the first to do this of course.

But I do have a problem with relying on our political, judicial, criminal institutions to do anything about this. We can help as much as we can. Sure. We can make the right choices with our food, money and thoughts. Yep. We can even save some animals and prevent some cruelty. Great. But I don’t believe that by preventing one animal from getting the knife, that another won’t get it in the opposite side of the world. We can expose what is going on and should. We can even speak out to our friends and family and… how can we not? We can wake some people up. Turn some heads. Convert some carnivores/omnivores/corpsevores or whatever they are called. But to change the world through veganism? I don’t think so. Not when the animal, dairy industries are as big as they are.

Money folks. Money drives the whole beast. All the war, poverty, cruelty, slaughtering, violence, crime, hunger, etc. What is behind it all? Money, money, money = Profit. Why money? Because a system that is fueled and driven by the once-noble-idea that our power is equivalent to our PURCHASING power, does not like change. Oh yeah. Even if it means the fight for animal rights to all living beings. Money baby. That’s the only idea that sells. That’s what it’s all about. If giving animals rights equals money, then it can happen. But it doesn’t. The Tolstoys, Shaws, Davincis, Einsteins had some great things to say. But this is 2011. The times have changed. So can we change things? Yes. Through mass awareness. But that awareness has to go much deeper than animal rights. Of that I am certain.

And you know what? I still have a problem with the whole animal rights activist movement for few reasons.

1) just because there are animals suffering around us doesn’t mean we should neglect the children born to poverty and dying from a lack of food because of our sick corporatocracy-government social system which enables such inequality to be bred

2) I frankly think the animal rights movement (as a whole, if that can even be said) seems quite unorganized, detached and also quite counterproductive in many ways regarding the problems we face on a global level. Maybe I’m wrong but how much progression is really being made? Yes, I know some. But in the big picture? Enlighten me.

But what bothers me most is that I don’t have the answers for these problems and I don’t know if the most productive thing for me right now is to go after those answers or go after building my own personal moral integrity and mental strength before I fully unleash myself to the world at large. Or maybe they are one and the same pursuit. I do know one thing. I am now part of the solution in one way or another. As far as I see it, I have no choice. It’s solution or suicide for me. This clarity of thought is empowering. I’m on the right path. I know it in my bones.

Can someone explain to me a few things:
* what exactly do these petitions do? what is the process? Pradf, let’s hear it… (I was gonna ask you this in our emails but I prefer to have this info out there in the public. And as we both wrote each other, the world is watching us.
* what is the ultimate goal of the animal rights movement?
* is there even such a thing as one large movement or is it just a bunch of individual movements; some working in cohesion and some not?

It seems to me that all the activists and organizations I have come across share one problem. Their function operates within the constrains of the current social paradigm. This is natural of course considering we live in it. But there is an elephant standing in the room that everyone seems to be ignoring.
For more on this, watch this video at 35:35
Watch the whole video if you are interested more in some of the things I wrote here as the men/women in this video can explain these things far better than I can.

Feel free to ask me questions and I’ll do my best to answer them or point you in the right direction.

Thanks for reading.

PS. BigG, Prad & Co, if you have any more powerful videos, links, threads, books, movies to share with me, please do so.

Reply by ednshell on January 26, 2011 at 5:01am

Hey Markus, a friendly reminder about 30BAD guidelines on swearing, only in the steam room and never in the titles. I myself have kids that actually do read here and they especially despise swear words 🙂

“Please remember this is a family friendly site, after all the 30baders of today are the 30baders of tomorrow. Please help us maintain a level of decorum so that parents feel good about bringing their kids here to learn, share and enjoy in the community. Adult issues can be discussed in such a way that model the art of effective, peaceful communication, using language and tones that are kind and safe for everyone.” – from guidelines

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/please-read-our-forum

“Eg – Instead of using “f*cking” we would like you to use the following sort of format instead – @#$%^& or ^&%$#@ *&^%$##. This can keep others guessing as to what is really being said, which can lighten up the situation and hopefully keep everyone happy.”

http://www.30bananasaday.com/notes/Please_keep_all_swearing_to_the_…

Thank you! 🙂

The PeacekeepersReply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 5:51amDelete

I respect the guidelines and apologies if I broke them. I also will try not to do so again.

but if I may say so, regarding swearing, what’s the big deal? Just words to express honest emotions. To give some weight to a phrase here and there. I understand if they are used unintelligently or obtrusively that they might deserve to be despised. Especially in the animal rights room where feelings of anger might suffice now and then. Just saying…

Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 6:14am

what’s the big deal?

we don’t allow it here and swearing certainly isn’t necessary for intelligent conversation.

feelings of anger need to be controlled which is why ad hominems aren’t allowed here either.

btw, ednshell was the one responsible for putting through the no swearing (except in the steam room policy) and it’s made the forum even better than it used to be. her efforts are much appreciated.

and don’t you try to pull a fast one on us markus by swearing in finnish!!! there are translators available and we’ll track it all down! 😀 😀

in friendship,

prad

Reply by ednshell on January 26, 2011 at 6:24am

I understand what you are saying but some people are offended by their use in any circumstance. There is always the steam room which has all topics in it. In fact you can just edit this thread to be in the steam room and swear all you want 🙂

You might enjoy reading this thread which was started before there were guidelines on swearing and back then there was quite a lot of it going on.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/harsh-words-cussing-vs-ge…

Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 9:33am

inspired by my studies, i decided to provide a suitable mathematical foundation for the peculiar phenomenon of profanity (ppp).

in ppp,

let W be the set of all words and S be the subset of all swear words.

let x = [}{#&

let y = ]+)$*[[

it is clear then that both x and y are elements of S

now it is important to note the following properties hold.

commutativity of concatenation:

x . y = y . x

in that it makes little difference whether you say

[}{#& ]+)$*[[

]+)$*[[ [}{#&

this is fairly obvious.

scalar multiplication with factor A>0:

Ax > x

Ay > y

because it should be evident that, say A=3

[}{#& times [}{#& times [}{#&

surely must have a greater impact than just

[}{#&

associativity of concatenation through z which need not be an element of S:

x . y . z = (x . y) . z = x . (y . z)

[}{#& ]+)$*[[ whatever = [}{#& ]+)$*[[ whatever = [}{#& ]+)$*[[ whatever

in all likelihood, because we’ve forgotten what x and y are by now.

of course, we can construct implicative phrases such as

if A, then B

where say, by introduction of elements beyond S, but within W we have

A = you are ]+)$*[[

B = [}{#&

however, antecedents and consequents introduce new challenges often leading to logical and physiological impossibilities. in any case, such matters can only be dealt with through the utilization of the sentential calculus and hence is beyond the scope of this text.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 8:27pm

Swearing debunked!!
Hahaa

Reply by PK on February 5, 2011 at 8:51am

Prad,

Potty Mouth Decoded!

In Peace and Fiendship, PK

Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 5:50am

markus here are the answers to your questions (and a bit more).

if you want some videos to show people send them here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:391047

just because there are animals suffering around us doesn’t mean we should neglect the children

this implies an illogical conclusion. it’s like suggesting that if we care for the disabled in the usa, we somehow automatically neglect the orphans in thailand. there is no reason to neglect the children, however, each individual has specific focus areas to work on. i spent many years in human rights and then moved on to animal rights because it is more foundational and you aren’t going to get the former until you get the latter (we can discuss this later if you want). this doesn’t mean i ignore human rights suddenly.

what exactly do these petitions do? what is the process? Pradf, let’s hear it.

petitions sometimes achieve their intended goal and sometimes they don’t. however, they always have some important side-effects:

1. politicians do pay attention to demographics even if they don’t respond responsibly, so in the long-term they may well be influenced by the numbers
2. online petitions make those on the fence or those on the other side aware that they are being watched
3. many people who weren’t aware of the particular issue become so as a result of such initiatives

so even if the petition doesn’t kill the monster, it may well rally the troops and help prevent hideous progeny.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:532309

what is the ultimate goal of the animal rights movement?

liberation from imprisonment, exploitation, abuse and murder by humans. it’s actually no different than the human rights movement (though pragmatically simpler and, as i said, more foundational) because humans have also been trying to liberate themselves from

imprisonment (eg political prisoners)

exploitation (eg the slave trade)

abuse (eg victims of domestic violence)

murder (eg just watch the news)

by other humans.

is there even such a thing as one large movement or is it just a bunch of individual movements; some working in cohesion and some not?

as you wrote there is indeed much disorganization in ar. this is primarily because the movement has gotten so large so quickly as explained in an earlier post. there are essentially two main branches:

animal welfare (which is fine with imprisonment, exploitation and murder, as long as you do it all with ‘niceness’)

animal abolitionists (which animal rights proper)

obviously animal welfare is insufficient, but it is very large and probably does much of the ground work because there is considerable money behind it. they can get a lot of the initial work done as happens in social justice movements which invariably progress through reforms. however, welfare must not ever become the goal. let the welfarists get some of the brunt work done and then we’ll zap them too. 😀

the animal abolitionists divide into 2 factions:

pseudo-abolitionists (they spend more time attacking the welfarists than the real enemy)

true abolitionists (they are essential to keeping everyone honest and reminding people what we’re here for)

sometimes the groups work together and sometimes they don’t.

there is also a variety of methodologies utilized ranging from

education (many ways to do this including animal law courses appearing at universities)

legal initiatives (of various kinds: legislation, prosecution etc)

direct action (the courageous work tarah does which should never, ever be underestimated)

the movement is huge and getting bigger.

anyone can join it at any level they choose to.

as leanne mallet said, “we need everyone!”

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 8:10amDelete

i spent many years in human rights and then moved on to animal rights

humans = animals, right? What am I missing here? Why the division? Wouldn’t it even be a big step forward if we began to see animals as us and vice versa? I know many people don’t think we are animals. Why is this not a crucial part of the animal rights message? If not the most important part? “Do unto others as others do to us” right?

it’s actually no different than the human rights movement (though pragmatically simpler and, as i said, more foundational)
How so? and perhaps this is related to my last question..

welfare must not ever become the goal.
This statement really resonates in me deeply although I would argue that what they are doing is not actually ‘animal welfare’ but ‘easing-peoples-conscience-about-their-sick-behavior-to-raise-animals-for-us’ welfare. Welfare should not be a relative term to satisfy our needs.

wel fare |ˈwelˌfe(ə)r|
noun
the health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group

the movement is huge and getting bigger.
If possible, can you please provide me with some objective data here? Just curious… and I don’t mean to say it’s not or judge you for making that statement. I just want something concrete and google is not being cooperative me today =)
Has the situation progressed?
Yes the information is spreading through education, internet, documentaries
Yes veganism is perhaps an expanding movement (or is it?)
Yes legalities are being fit to for ‘justice’
Yes direct action continues
but has it progressed regarding the big picture?
What I mean is, is the situation getting better?
or worse?

And one more question:
What is the biggest obstacle currently that confronts the movement?
Is it an erroneous approach towards movement methodology or an outside factor preventing progress?

it’s easy not to feel the pain, when you look the other way.
it’s easy not to act, when you look the other way.
but every time you look the other way, some being pays a severe price and you are complicit.
Beautifully said. This makes me feel guilty for typing away on my computer in my nice, cozy apartment and ‘rationalizing’ (or learning) while atrocities are happening. I am not looking away! I want to help. But first I want to understand what the situation is.

A clear plan, mission statement, well-layedout and executed on a global level is necessary.
I still don’t see that one exists. The ultimate goal you kindly gave me already. But we cannot have a goal without a clear blueprint of how to realistically achieve it. If there is one, please let me know. There is a problem here to be solved. What is the problem? What is the solution?

The best plan I have still seen that obliterates the concepts of human or animal rights (at least in the way we talk about them) and addresses them and every other problem we face is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxpvyMsRvkw

no, we must not turn the other way
no, we must not let cruelty prevail
no, we must not sit on our asses while beings are murdered

But we do have to know what we are doing although doing something is better than nothing.
However sometimes the things we DON’T do are more powerful than what actually ‘do’.
But if you want to sign a petition, at least go here and join this movement:
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

Take action AND inform yourself so your future actions will be increasingly effective and have consequences that spread out farther than ever. And yes, I am saying this (as a member of TZM) on behalf of ALL animals, including us.

Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 11:07am

humans = animals, right? What am I missing here? Why the division?

there isn’t a division, merely a focusing. for instance, i do a fair bit of work with rabbits and seals. that doesn’t mean i automatically ignore rodeos or dogs. the fight is against oppressors and in support of the victims.

the reason you are seeing a division is because you are creating one by thinking that humans are somehow in a different category. you actually emphasize this point when you write in your op:

It’s humanity that we are out to save. There ain’t no shame in denying that.

instead try:

It’s victims that we are out to save. There ain’t no shame in denying that. And I will focus my efforts on pigs, sheep and the disabled.

here is an article by one of my former students that you may appreciate:

A long long time

so if you want to work on pigs, sheep and the disabled, but aren’t interested in rabbits and seals, that doesn’t mean i think you are creating a division.

the jewel of peta which was taken around to the universities in the usa by another of my former students, sangeeta (who is on 30bad, btw), ties much of this together beautifully. sangeeta developed the road show and presented it in front of hostile audiences over and over again (much like gary, though out in the open not in a classroom situation). her style is quite different, but nevertheless compelling. you can’t see her in action here, but you’ll get a general idea of what this is about from the website:

animal liberation project

This statement really resonates in me deeply although I would argue that what they are doing is not actually ‘animal welfare’ but ‘easing-peoples-conscience-about-their-sick-behavior-to-raise-animals-for-us’ welfare.

unfortunately, your statement is too correct and is a reason why abolitionists are so anti-welfare. this is what gary francione calls the ‘happy meat’ syndrome.

while i think welfarists sometimes mean well and do address the ‘right not to suffer’ sort of, it would be wrong of me to make excuses on their behalf.

If possible, can you please provide me with some objective data here?

i already did from one angle in this post here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:893597

but i’ll repeat the relevant part below.

peta’s membership alone is close to a million (may be more since i last looked a couple of years ago). hsus is hitting the 10 million mark. and of course, there are thousands of smaller groups:

world animal network

(when i worked on a database 4 years ago with their listing there were less than 2000 – now it’s grown to over 3000, i see – just with the affiliates)

if you want to see the specifics of the progress list, you can go to the organizations’ websites which will usually contain a victory section which contains all the successes it has had. these things are obviously useful for fund-raising as well as reminding members what the organization has managed to accomplish. (for instance, sea sheperd’s harassment of the japanese whale killers helped cut the actual number of whales slaughtered to less than 50% quota last year from what i recall – though someone may want to confirm this. similarly, the eu ban on seal products have all but destroyed the fashion market for seal fur in europe and most likely the world.)

but has it progressed regarding the big picture?
What I mean is, is the situation getting better?
or worse?

definitely better. there is more exposure and more involvement followed by more action.

What is the biggest obstacle currently that confronts the movement?
Is it an erroneous approach towards movement methodology or an outside factor preventing progress?

probably the fact that ar groups still bicker amongst themselves (the price of increased population, it seems). this is an ongoing problem with an undisciplined species and will likely be its undoing unless resolved. as an author once wrote:

one day an ant will come out of a human skull, remains of the extinct species and say: “interesting creature! marvellous brain. too bad it never understood the business of survival.”

This makes me feel guilty for typing away on my computer in my nice, cozy apartment and ‘rationalizing’ (or learning) while atrocities are happening.

you shouldn’t feel that way. typing away on the computer is one of those elements which has made ar progress as rapidly as it has. in a lecture paul watson did at the university of victoria, canada he made it clear that everyone doesn’t have to go and ram whaling ships. some people are good at that, while others are equally adept using other skills.

the thing to remember is that you don’t have to do everything, but you can always do something.

But we cannot have a goal without a clear blueprint of how to realistically achieve it.

yes you most certainly can have a goal with out a clear blueprint of how to realistically achieve it. the goal comes first, then you work on the blueprint. without the goal, there won’t be any blueprint.

If there is one, please let me know. There is a problem here to be solved. What is the problem? What is the solution?

the solution for you is likely to stop looking for the solution.

the reason is you won’t find the blueprint, because there are many of them.

by all means, learn all you can, teach where you can, participate when you can.

(you are already doing some of that through this thread and through your questions and observations)

if you want to raise your level of consciousness, so you get to work on others’ that’s ok.

if you want to probe the human soul and find a way to make everyone find theirs, that fine too.

however, these things don’t take any particularly special effort. tarah is doing exactly these things every time she tells us about what her soul is up to and where her body is going. one can find what one is searching for, by spending less effort in the searching and more in process of living. the answers are everywhere, just “blowin’ in the wind”.

However sometimes the things we DON’T do are more powerful than what actually ‘do’.

absolutely! for instance, by not making a monumentous effort to unify the human and animal kingdom at a theoretical level when it is practically that way already, one can more powerfully get something going with the unexpended time and energy. i think the zeitgeist movement is likely a good one to consider seriously.

well said indeed, markus!

and well done too!!

in friendship,

prad

Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 11:49am

prad wrote:

the solution for you is likely to stop looking for the solution.

zen master baso when he was young was caught meditating all over the place by his teacher who asked him “why are you meditating so much?”

baso answered, “to become a buddha”.

his teacher pick up a piece of slate and started polishing it.

baso asked, “why are you polishing the slate so vigorously?”

teacher replied, “to turn it into a mirror.”

baso laughed, “no amount of polishing is going to turn a slate into a mirror?”

teacher replied, “no amount of cross-legged sitting is going to turn one into a buddha.”

baso then understood.

but just to be sure, his teacher hit him with a staff on the head.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 8:28pm

my favorite part is:
but just to be sure, his teacher hit him with a staff on the head.

heheh

Reply by BigG. on January 26, 2011 at 4:05pm

Markus,

No problem I thank Gary for doing what he does.

I recommend taking the time to watch many of his videos.

I think Prad has done a very good job addressing many of your questions already.

Take Care,Reply by pradtf on January 26, 2011 at 5:06am

this is in reference to tarah’s post here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:894308

What we cannot do is allow ourselves to remain complacent.

apathy and rationalization are the bane of the species’ existence. it’s bad enough to do nothing, worse to justify inaction with esoteric rationalizations citing universal generalizations with standard words like “love” and “peace” and “non-violence” thrown in, and particularly disgusting when one’s own guilt seems to necessitate attacks on those who are doing what needs to be done to stop oppressors. (fortunately, we have better alternatives than be disgusted :D)

gandhi preached non-violence, but he made it very clear that he despised having it used as a cloak for cowardice and inaction. such results in the situation so aptly described by martin niemoller’s famous words:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me —

and there was no one left to speak for me.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

narcissism is cheap and requiring but little effort.

so often those who tell others to be ‘peaceful’ and ‘loving’ leech onto these ideas because they’ve read it in some book by some ‘guru’ who knows how to market stuff well. warm fuzzies are distributed in abundance by those who haven’t experienced violence beyond watching soap operas from the comfort of their own couch.

when i volunteered at a women’s shelter (my wife was on the board of directors), there was this curious policy decision that was made to persuade the victims not to hate those who had bruised and battered them. of course, none of that well-meaning board had had the dubious pleasure of being bashed around, so upholding such ‘noble’ sentiments was as simple as pronouncing the words. unfortunately the victims didn’t always quite appreciate such soaring psychobabble and eventually some more sensible board members showed up and the policy was scrapped.

it’s easy not to feel the pain, when you look the other way.

it’s easy not to act, when you look the other way.

but every time you look the other way, some being pays a severe price and you are complicit.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by victor van epps on January 26, 2011 at 5:21am

I am not gonna lie..I am out to save myself. Until I can raise my level of consciousness, sustain it and be the master of my mind-I can do very little to help others. In Vipassana we say over and over know thyself. The best I can do is make the changes in me. LFRV is just a very minor portion of that equation.

Reply by SunWorshipper (SW) on January 26, 2011 at 7:45am

Saving the planet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd663Wd8lBk&feature=related

Reply by markus on January 26, 2011 at 8:35pm

I have learned a lot in this thread and even changed some of my views. I also look at my original post and I can say that if I wrote it today, it would be slightly different than back in the day (three days ago, lol!)…. actually maybe I should write it again. I especially want to thank Prad for helping shed light on some issues that were in the dark for me. If anybody ever wants to learn more about animal rights, this is the thread I will refer them to. it will also serve as an interesting chronicle regarding my own story and progression on this path –> to look back upon in future times.

now my organic bananas/celery is calling to me in the kitchen telling me they want to digest in me and quite rightfully so! haha. can’t forget about those fruit/veggie rights either =))

Reply by pradtf on January 29, 2011 at 4:52am

markus,

thank you for your generous acknowledgement.

i am also glad that we have so many fine and active people on 30bad who understand the issues and are approaching them in effective ways. their excellent contributions here are very significant and much appreciated.

i also, very much am glad for your initiative and involvement in this thread, as well as our email discussions. you have created a very fine contribution with it to 30bad. your posts additionally show that it is important to not only answer, but also to ask these questions. your diligence has turned this into a thread not only to be featured, but like you, i will refer others to it as well.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by pradtf on February 4, 2011 at 10:47am

Forgive me for any lack in writing skills and vocabulary/usage/grammar. Im working on this, by doing as much reading and dictionary checking as possible.

not at all terra – this is a fine and well-articulated post.

in friendship,

prad

Reply by nickeyp on February 4, 2011 at 10:52am

Hi,

I find your writing admirable!. I would like to be able to write as eloquently as you do too!. I wonder, what type of books do you read, and are they helping you in your style? i often thought of poetry, as they are very eloquent as well. I am wondering what I can do to improve my writing skills and thought of going to college for this…

also, how do you deal with emotions? I don’t understand my emotions much, and would like to comprehend them better….

nick